4 ms·

Tech seems to be the only field that does these dumb types of interviews. Accounting, law, medicine etc seems to work well without these filters. Why are tech i

Tech seems to be the only field that does these dumb types of interviews. Accounting, law, medicine etc seems to work well without these filters. Why are tech interviews so stupid?

lostcolony 6y ago
So you're advocating a license to practice software development? Because the three fields you mention are all licensed.
- aswanson 6y ago
  Sure, why not.
- sithlord 6y ago
  You do not have to be a CPA to be an accountant. a CPA is an accountant who can sign off on financial statements for an auditing firm.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  The whiteboard standard already acts like a de facto license. Algorithmic/data structure more theory-oriented problems are unrepresentative of "actual work" and are annoying, but what's more annoying is how the process is 1) opaque, and 2) repetitive. So you end up with candidates grinding through 80+ Leetcode problems to both master the skills necessary to ace these problems, as well as covering as many commonly-asked problems in a bid to game the system by preempting their interviewees questions. Goodhart's law abounds. This basically makes the process into an interview version of standardized testing. But- despite the standard prep process and a standard bank of questions, it can all easily fall apart because of subjective interviewer opinion, and so all the preparation is for naught. Candidates end up having to do the interview gauntlet for each company they apply at. So standardize it. Put out clear, industry-standard rubrics for how one's performance is graded. Don't say "we only want to know how you think" and then ding candidates for not getting the right solution. You obviously care about the right answer as much as the thought process- don't be disingenuous about it. Maybe even standardize the level of difficulty of problems. And most of all: Make this process a one-time thing. Or rather, a once every five year thing. Outsource the ds/a interviewing section to a third party testing organization, like what Triplebyte is attempting to do, and have the actual interview be personalized to the company. Ask domain specific questions, relevant experience questions, system design, and culture fit questions during the company interview. And leave the DS/A portion be akin to the licensure tests that other engineering disciplines and STEM professions already have. Software engineers may hate credentialism, but if it's a credential that you only need to take once or twice in a decade, then it's already far superior to the current system that forces candidates to undergo this each time they change jobs.
- wan23 6y ago
  There's a difference between licensing and certification. A license is when the government says you need to meet some requirements to practice. A certification is when some entity, usually a board or industry group certifies that you are good enough at your job. We don't need licensing, but it would be great if we had broadly accepted certifications for software development. Even if you believe in FANG style interviews, ideally you should be able to pass one time and have it be accepted by every company. Once you have the certification, we could do interviews that focus on the type of things that individual teams and companies care about.
- cableshaft 6y ago
  Not a license to practice, but how about some sort of exam I can pass that would let me never have to do the whiteboard dance ever again? As it is, I'm basically studying for an unknown and nowhere near standard "certification", more or less, in the form of the technical interview, with only an inkling of what I might have to study for every single interview I go on. I guarantee my career has been stunted because I delay my job search because I just don't want to go through that bullshit all over again, and stick with jobs long after I've stopped being passionate about them, despite there being a huge demand for software engineers. Not everyone has to take the standardized exam, but if you do, you can show that to someone and they go "okay, I'm going to skip the technical pop quiz, let's move on to other things". That's supposed to be what my degree was for, but apparently no one trusts that anymore, so why did I waste the time and money in the first place?
room500 6y ago
The other fields have various ways to filter out people. * Accounting has CPA exams/certifications * Law has the bar exams/law school * Medicine has the USMLE/medical school Tech prides itself on the fact that "anyone" can be a great tech worker regardless of how you get there - read some books, attend a bootcamp, go to college, or even just start banging out code on the keyboard until you gain experience Unfortunately, that means that the companies have to have some filter
- bluedino 6y ago
  "Complete a university computer science degree"
  - cableshaft 6y ago
    Did that. Doesn't seem to matter for shit in any interview I've had, except maybe to pass an initial HR filter. Waste of fucking money that was (I'm kind of joking, I did learn some valuable things in college).
  - chillacy 6y ago
    Parent poster is pointing out that _in addition_ to your degree you must pass a professional exam as well. This is common in professional fields where there is a licensed title (e.g. M.D. or P.E.). Btw there is a Software Engineering PE exam but I don't know anyone who has taken it: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pd... If you take and pass it you can add the title PE to your name in the US.
  - michaelscott 6y ago
    I know people with a computer science degree that couldn't write a function of production code if their life depended on it, and I know people without one that are gods on a keyboard. I think a better alternative is some type of bar-like or CA-like test that anyone can take regardless of qualification, but which you must pass in order to be considered a competent software engineer.
JamesBarney 6y ago
They instead use credentials. Where did you go to school, what was your gpa, where was your residency, what law firm did you work for, how likable are you. Yes tech interviews could be much better but other industries hiring process is just as if not more broken than ours.
aswanson 6y ago
I had a guy ask me the number of hardware interrupts there were on a processor I used 4 years prior and what the exact part number was on an interview. Just incredibly stupid questions.

Tech seems to be the only field that does these dumb types of interviews. Accounting, law, medicine etc seems to work well without these filters. Why are tech interviews so stupid?

lostcolony 6y ago

So you're advocating a license to practice software development? Because the three fields you mention are all licensed.

aswanson 6y ago
Sure, why not.
sithlord 6y ago
You do not have to be a CPA to be an accountant. a CPA is an accountant who can sign off on financial statements for an auditing firm.
Apocryphon 6y ago
The whiteboard standard already acts like a de facto license. Algorithmic/data structure more theory-oriented problems are unrepresentative of "actual work" and are annoying, but what's more annoying is how the process is 1) opaque, and 2) repetitive. So you end up with candidates grinding through 80+ Leetcode problems to both master the skills necessary to ace these problems, as well as covering as many commonly-asked problems in a bid to game the system by preempting their interviewees questions. Goodhart's law abounds. This basically makes the process into an interview version of standardized testing. But- despite the standard prep process and a standard bank of questions, it can all easily fall apart because of subjective interviewer opinion, and so all the preparation is for naught. Candidates end up having to do the interview gauntlet for each company they apply at. So standardize it. Put out clear, industry-standard rubrics for how one's performance is graded. Don't say "we only want to know how you think" and then ding candidates for not getting the right solution. You obviously care about the right answer as much as the thought process- don't be disingenuous about it. Maybe even standardize the level of difficulty of problems. And most of all: Make this process a one-time thing. Or rather, a once every five year thing. Outsource the ds/a interviewing section to a third party testing organization, like what Triplebyte is attempting to do, and have the actual interview be personalized to the company. Ask domain specific questions, relevant experience questions, system design, and culture fit questions during the company interview. And leave the DS/A portion be akin to the licensure tests that other engineering disciplines and STEM professions already have. Software engineers may hate credentialism, but if it's a credential that you only need to take once or twice in a decade, then it's already far superior to the current system that forces candidates to undergo this each time they change jobs.
wan23 6y ago
There's a difference between licensing and certification. A license is when the government says you need to meet some requirements to practice. A certification is when some entity, usually a board or industry group certifies that you are good enough at your job. We don't need licensing, but it would be great if we had broadly accepted certifications for software development. Even if you believe in FANG style interviews, ideally you should be able to pass one time and have it be accepted by every company. Once you have the certification, we could do interviews that focus on the type of things that individual teams and companies care about.
cableshaft 6y ago
Not a license to practice, but how about some sort of exam I can pass that would let me never have to do the whiteboard dance ever again? As it is, I'm basically studying for an unknown and nowhere near standard "certification", more or less, in the form of the technical interview, with only an inkling of what I might have to study for every single interview I go on. I guarantee my career has been stunted because I delay my job search because I just don't want to go through that bullshit all over again, and stick with jobs long after I've stopped being passionate about them, despite there being a huge demand for software engineers. Not everyone has to take the standardized exam, but if you do, you can show that to someone and they go "okay, I'm going to skip the technical pop quiz, let's move on to other things". That's supposed to be what my degree was for, but apparently no one trusts that anymore, so why did I waste the time and money in the first place?

room500 6y ago

The other fields have various ways to filter out people. * Accounting has CPA exams/certifications * Law has the bar exams/law school * Medicine has the USMLE/medical school Tech prides itself on the fact that "anyone" can be a great tech worker regardless of how you get there - read some books, attend a bootcamp, go to college, or even just start banging out code on the keyboard until you gain experience Unfortunately, that means that the companies have to have some filter

bluedino 6y ago
"Complete a university computer science degree"
- cableshaft 6y ago
  Did that. Doesn't seem to matter for shit in any interview I've had, except maybe to pass an initial HR filter. Waste of fucking money that was (I'm kind of joking, I did learn some valuable things in college).
- chillacy 6y ago
  Parent poster is pointing out that _in addition_ to your degree you must pass a professional exam as well. This is common in professional fields where there is a licensed title (e.g. M.D. or P.E.). Btw there is a Software Engineering PE exam but I don't know anyone who has taken it: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pd... If you take and pass it you can add the title PE to your name in the US.
- michaelscott 6y ago
  I know people with a computer science degree that couldn't write a function of production code if their life depended on it, and I know people without one that are gods on a keyboard. I think a better alternative is some type of bar-like or CA-like test that anyone can take regardless of qualification, but which you must pass in order to be considered a competent software engineer.

JamesBarney 6y ago

They instead use credentials. Where did you go to school, what was your gpa, where was your residency, what law firm did you work for, how likable are you. Yes tech interviews could be much better but other industries hiring process is just as if not more broken than ours.

aswanson 6y ago

I had a guy ask me the number of hardware interrupts there were on a processor I used 4 years prior and what the exact part number was on an interview. Just incredibly stupid questions.