6 ms·

What are the consequences of the inevitable natural gas or coal power plant that will replace it? There's always a lot of talk about renewables, yet it seems th

What are the consequences of the inevitable natural gas or coal power plant that will replace it? There's always a lot of talk about renewables, yet it seems that we still end up with a fossil fuel based powerplant. It's not like France is building new nuclear plants to replace the ones that are shutting down.

morsch 6y ago
> There's always a lot of talk about renewables It's odd to pretend that renewables are all talk when at the moment I'm writing this France's power grid is 28% renewable[1]. And France still has lots of opportunities to expand, both solar and wind. You'd think with >4000km of coast line there'd be lots of space for offshore wind. [1] https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/FR https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/FR and 60% nuclear, but the point still stands
- mlyle 6y ago
  In this case, we're taking offline an amount of nuclear power that exceeds the entire photovoltaic contribution to the French grid, and replacing it with power from a combined cycle plant in Germany. In turn, Germany is commissioning a new coal power plant, in part because of the increased French demand for electricity.
  - freeflight 6y ago
    > In turn, Germany is commissioning a new coal power plant, in part because of the increased French demand for electricity. The coal plant was actually commissioned in the early 2000s, construction started 2007, but finished only recently in May 2020 [0]. It was supposed to replace 3 older ones that already went offline back in 2014. As such it has literally nothing to do with the Fessenheim 2 closing, the article trying to spin it like that is quite misleading. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Datteln https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Datteln
    - mlyle 6y ago
      Commissioning means "putting into service" in this context (to me, at least).
- jnxx 6y ago
  And then, there is wave power, which is essentially wind energy decoupled from its origin in time and space, has(had) extremely encouraging working prototypes, like the Pelamis design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3-SXFtPYe0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3-SXFtPYe0 This was a [prototype 750 kW (KiloWatt) plant operating at Orkney Islands and near Portugal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelamis_Wave_Energy_Converter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelamis_Wave_Energy_Converter) - as a reference, it took wind power plants more than 20 years of enthusiastic development until the installed power reached 500 kW. It is a shame that this development was shut down (while the design has been reported to be picked up by, guess whom, the Chinese), while being owned by E.ON. But I am sure more developments will follow, as the design is an excellent idea.
  - julosflb 6y ago
    Altough avaible energy is indeed abundant, it is quite a challenge to extract it at scale. The issue with this kind of system is that they usually rely on complex mechanical systems that usually don't play well in offshore conditions and are maintenance nightmares. Some new concept are trying to get rid of mechanical parts using electro active polymer, but that still requires years of development...
  - morsch 6y ago
    > as a reference, it took wind power plants more than 20 years of enthusiastic development until the installed power reached 500 kW. I mean, I don't doubt that that's true, but at the same time a single modern wind turbine generates 2-5 MWp, up 8 MWp offshore.
- kergonath 6y ago
  The bulk of French renewable is hydro, which is not going to grow, and has been there for ages. It's actually a very good complement to nuclear plants. It's disingenuous to point at 28% renewables as if it's a sudden victory of good wind and solar against bad old nuclear. Particularly when we know that gas power plants will be built to partially replace Fessenheim.
  - morsch 6y ago
    Current renewable generation is two thirds hydro, one third solar and wind. France's installed capacity for solar plus wind already exceeds hydro. With plenty of room for more.
    - Udik 6y ago
      > installed capacity for solar plus wind Installed capacity for solar and wind is a parameter that seems pretty meaningless. For example (according to Wikipedia) the Agua Caliente solar project in Arizona (an ideal location), has an effective output of less than 30% of its installed capacity. A PV plant more comparable with France's conditions, the Lauingen Energy Park in Bavaria, has an output of 12% of its installed capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_factor#Photovoltaic_power_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_factor#Photovoltaic_p...
      - morsch 6y ago
        I never claimed that installed capacity equals effective output, that's obviously not true. I don't think the figures are meaningless, either, but whatever -- Grandparent claimed that the bulk of renewable energy produced in France is hydro (and called me disingenuous). I just cited some statistics -- installed capacity as well as current effective output! -- to put his claim into context. Here are some more[1]: Energy production by source in France, 2019, Hydro 55.5 TWh, Wind 34.1 TWh, Solar 11.6 TWh. Obviously anybody is free to assign whatever value one wishes to terms like "bulk of", but those are the numbers. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/768066/electricity-production-france-source/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/768066/electricity-produ...

morsch 6y ago

> There's always a lot of talk about renewables It's odd to pretend that renewables are all talk when at the moment I'm writing this France's power grid is 28% renewable[1]. And France still has lots of opportunities to expand, both solar and wind. You'd think with >4000km of coast line there'd be lots of space for offshore wind. [1] https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/FR https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/FR and 60% nuclear, but the point still stands

mlyle 6y ago
In this case, we're taking offline an amount of nuclear power that exceeds the entire photovoltaic contribution to the French grid, and replacing it with power from a combined cycle plant in Germany. In turn, Germany is commissioning a new coal power plant, in part because of the increased French demand for electricity.
- freeflight 6y ago
  > In turn, Germany is commissioning a new coal power plant, in part because of the increased French demand for electricity. The coal plant was actually commissioned in the early 2000s, construction started 2007, but finished only recently in May 2020 [0]. It was supposed to replace 3 older ones that already went offline back in 2014. As such it has literally nothing to do with the Fessenheim 2 closing, the article trying to spin it like that is quite misleading. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Datteln https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Datteln
  - mlyle 6y ago
    Commissioning means "putting into service" in this context (to me, at least).
jnxx 6y ago
And then, there is wave power, which is essentially wind energy decoupled from its origin in time and space, has(had) extremely encouraging working prototypes, like the Pelamis design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3-SXFtPYe0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3-SXFtPYe0 This was a [prototype 750 kW (KiloWatt) plant operating at Orkney Islands and near Portugal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelamis_Wave_Energy_Converter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelamis_Wave_Energy_Converter) - as a reference, it took wind power plants more than 20 years of enthusiastic development until the installed power reached 500 kW. It is a shame that this development was shut down (while the design has been reported to be picked up by, guess whom, the Chinese), while being owned by E.ON. But I am sure more developments will follow, as the design is an excellent idea.
- julosflb 6y ago
  Altough avaible energy is indeed abundant, it is quite a challenge to extract it at scale. The issue with this kind of system is that they usually rely on complex mechanical systems that usually don't play well in offshore conditions and are maintenance nightmares. Some new concept are trying to get rid of mechanical parts using electro active polymer, but that still requires years of development...
- morsch 6y ago
  > as a reference, it took wind power plants more than 20 years of enthusiastic development until the installed power reached 500 kW. I mean, I don't doubt that that's true, but at the same time a single modern wind turbine generates 2-5 MWp, up 8 MWp offshore.
kergonath 6y ago
The bulk of French renewable is hydro, which is not going to grow, and has been there for ages. It's actually a very good complement to nuclear plants. It's disingenuous to point at 28% renewables as if it's a sudden victory of good wind and solar against bad old nuclear. Particularly when we know that gas power plants will be built to partially replace Fessenheim.
- morsch 6y ago
  Current renewable generation is two thirds hydro, one third solar and wind. France's installed capacity for solar plus wind already exceeds hydro. With plenty of room for more.
  - Udik 6y ago
    > installed capacity for solar plus wind Installed capacity for solar and wind is a parameter that seems pretty meaningless. For example (according to Wikipedia) the Agua Caliente solar project in Arizona (an ideal location), has an effective output of less than 30% of its installed capacity. A PV plant more comparable with France's conditions, the Lauingen Energy Park in Bavaria, has an output of 12% of its installed capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_factor#Photovoltaic_power_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_factor#Photovoltaic_p...
    - morsch 6y ago
      I never claimed that installed capacity equals effective output, that's obviously not true. I don't think the figures are meaningless, either, but whatever -- Grandparent claimed that the bulk of renewable energy produced in France is hydro (and called me disingenuous). I just cited some statistics -- installed capacity as well as current effective output! -- to put his claim into context. Here are some more[1]: Energy production by source in France, 2019, Hydro 55.5 TWh, Wind 34.1 TWh, Solar 11.6 TWh. Obviously anybody is free to assign whatever value one wishes to terms like "bulk of", but those are the numbers. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/768066/electricity-production-france-source/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/768066/electricity-produ...