8 ms·

> The condos in the building are full-floor and the keyed elevator opens right into the apartment. Doesn't this mean that anybody with the [widely, publicly kn

> The condos in the building are full-floor and the keyed elevator opens right into the apartment. Doesn't this mean that anybody with the [widely, publicly known] FDNY elevator override key can get right into the apartment? I've seen far too many physical pentesting talks (i.e. any at all) to trust a setup like that for my home in a city.

Naac 6y ago
Probably not. There is most likely another door once the elevator opens, that also require some sort of key.
- epc 6y ago
  Not necessarily. I have not been in the building in question, but have looked at multiple other apartments in NYC where the elevator opened directly into the unit, no door. Typically older buildings, not newer construction.
- dopamean 6y ago
  I have several friends who live in these types of apartments and all of them have apartments where the elevator opens directly into the unit. This is a common setup.
  - libraryatnight 6y ago
    I've never been in such an apartment, but that is how Robin Colcord's private elevator worked on Cheers, so I believe you.
  - m-p-3 6y ago
    I'd get a lobby built around that elevator with an additional locked door.. or maybe I'm too paranoid.
    - voisin 6y ago
      This is actually how they are frequently built. Not always, obviously, but it is extremely common for full floor apartments to still have a “lobby” for the unit around the elevator.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      I'd say you're spot on. Compromising an elevator can't be the hardest thing to do computing wise. It's all actuators in the end and they really don't care what gives the signal.
  - psds2 6y ago
    Do residents never get in the elevator with other tenants of the building? It would feel odd to open my door to complete strangers like that just because the elevator stopped on my floor before theirs.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - dopamean 6y ago
      In all the instances I have personal experience with the buildings are very small. No more than a dozen units and so there isn't usually a big risk of running into anyone. Also, I don't think you can actually ring multiple floors in those elevators. The elevator would need to take you to your unit then go back to the lobby to get the next person. The building this attack happened in had a total of 7 units.
mtalantikite 6y ago
Possibly. Though the apartments I’ve been in that have elevators that open directly into the unit here in NYC have had doormen at the front entrance. Generally if you’re rich enough for that sort of setup the building is rich enough for a doorman (I’m sure there are exceptions though).
- Alex3917 6y ago
  > Generally if you’re rich enough for that sort of setup the building is rich enough for a doorman That's true for newer buildings that are purposely built to be luxury apartment buildings. But if you're living in a building that used to be an office building or a factory then it's not necessarily going to have a doorman. This applies to a lot of the old industrial buildings in SoHo, Chelsea, the meatpacking district, Union Square, etc. It's basically impossible to change where the elevator shaft of a building is after it's been built, because it's part of the structural support system of the building, so you can't just move everything around to add a lobby and front desk to the ground floor after the fact.
  - mtalantikite 6y ago
    For sure, there are exceptions. A friend of mine is in one of those old SoHo buildings that was converted to luxury apartments, and the doorman in the lobby is basically just at a desk someone threw into the corner of the entrance since there is no room for anything else.
- nihonde 6y ago
  That’s putting a lot of trust in the doorman. Having lived in doorman buildings in Manhattan for a long time, I definitely considered the building staff as much (or more) of a security risk as any outsiders.
- dialamac 6y ago
  There’s plenty of newer “boutique” buildings in Manhattan/Brooklyn with the elevator direct to apartment without a doorman. It’s not necessarily more expensive to do it this way if you think about it. You don’t need a lobby or halls on each floor for one.
stefan_ 6y ago
Okay, but most people are murdered by someone they knew (well).
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  Very true. You're much more likely to be killed by someone out of rage or mental illness than being mugged and then shot as a random victim.
  - andi999 6y ago
    The big difference is for the first case you can influence it very strongly, the second one is indiscriminate. So the personal risk for you (and for me) might be much higher for the random mugging case.
- greyhair 6y ago
  And I have to wonder if that is what happened in this case.
azinman2 6y ago
Would you have a house with windows on the street? Do you walk outside without body armor and a bullet proof vest? Get in a cab... without knowing the driver or having bullet proof glass? Society wouldn't be very fun or fruitful if we all lived in secure underground bunkers.
- dreae 6y ago
  You can tell when someone's broken your window
  - azinman2 6y ago
    So you’re afraid of coming home and there’s someone hiding in the house? How often does this actually happen compared to homes secured differently? It’s not like most houses have some impossible to pick locks...
- throwanem 6y ago
  There's a qualitative difference between wanting to live in a bunker, and having the front door key to my house be on the Internet for anyone with a blank and a bastard file to copy in half an hour. Not that penthouse problems will ever be my problems, granted. But let's not be too absurd here.
  - esoterica 6y ago
    Almost every single family home on the planet can be broken into just by smashing a window. That's a far bigger vulnerability than the possibility of hacking someone's elevator. Most burglars are not very tech savvy but everyone knows how to swing a hammer.
    - baddox 6y ago
      I think there are a lot of people who wouldn’t break a window to steal from a house but who would steal from a house if they found the door key.
awb 6y ago
Doesn't seem to be the issue in this case: > One of the law enforcement officials said a surveillance camera had captured video of Mr. Saleh in the building’s elevator with another person who was wearing a black suit and black mask. On the video, the elevator door opens and Mr. Saleh goes into the apartment, the official said. The masked person follows directly behind him, and the two immediately start to struggle, the official said.
- glenstein 6y ago
  Is that quote from a different article? I'm either not seeing it in the article or my ctrl+F powers are failing me.
  - fouc 6y ago
    yeah, dang mentions the link was changed a couple of times
    - glenstein 6y ago
      Thanks. By the time I got here dang's comments were buried on pg 2.
  - awb 6y ago
    It's from the NYT article originally associated with this post: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/nyregion/dismembered-body-houston-street-manhattan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/nyregion/dismembered-body...
- awb 6y ago
  And from a recent update: https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-decapitated-limbless-manhattan-murder-nypd-20200715-hqibzmrtgbhj7dwwubtaiolsa4-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-decapitate... > The worried sister went to the apartment because she hadn’t seen her brother in a day, and arrived only to find his butchered body, cops said. > The suspect bolted via a staircase as the sister rode the elevator upstairs to visit victim Fahim Saleh, with her impending arrival interrupting the killer’s efforts to scrub the bloody condo clean and dispose of the body, the source said. > “He was dressed like a ninja, full out, so you can’t even see his face,” the source said. “He clearly knew what he was doing. We think his intent was to get rid of the body parts and go back and clean it up and make it look like nothing happened. He left before he finished the job.” > The assassin stabbed him repeatedly in the chest to kill him, according to his autopsy results. He used a stun gun to incapacitate Saleh before murdering him, police sources said. > A police source indicated investigators believed the grisly execution was prompted by a business deal gone lethally bad.
sgc 6y ago
You can always install your own door in your own apartment.

Naac 6y ago

Probably not. There is most likely another door once the elevator opens, that also require some sort of key.

epc 6y ago
Not necessarily. I have not been in the building in question, but have looked at multiple other apartments in NYC where the elevator opened directly into the unit, no door. Typically older buildings, not newer construction.
dopamean 6y ago
I have several friends who live in these types of apartments and all of them have apartments where the elevator opens directly into the unit. This is a common setup.
- libraryatnight 6y ago
  I've never been in such an apartment, but that is how Robin Colcord's private elevator worked on Cheers, so I believe you.
- m-p-3 6y ago
  I'd get a lobby built around that elevator with an additional locked door.. or maybe I'm too paranoid.
  - voisin 6y ago
    This is actually how they are frequently built. Not always, obviously, but it is extremely common for full floor apartments to still have a “lobby” for the unit around the elevator.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    I'd say you're spot on. Compromising an elevator can't be the hardest thing to do computing wise. It's all actuators in the end and they really don't care what gives the signal.
- psds2 6y ago
  Do residents never get in the elevator with other tenants of the building? It would feel odd to open my door to complete strangers like that just because the elevator stopped on my floor before theirs.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dopamean 6y ago
    In all the instances I have personal experience with the buildings are very small. No more than a dozen units and so there isn't usually a big risk of running into anyone. Also, I don't think you can actually ring multiple floors in those elevators. The elevator would need to take you to your unit then go back to the lobby to get the next person. The building this attack happened in had a total of 7 units.

mtalantikite 6y ago

Possibly. Though the apartments I’ve been in that have elevators that open directly into the unit here in NYC have had doormen at the front entrance. Generally if you’re rich enough for that sort of setup the building is rich enough for a doorman (I’m sure there are exceptions though).

Alex3917 6y ago
> Generally if you’re rich enough for that sort of setup the building is rich enough for a doorman That's true for newer buildings that are purposely built to be luxury apartment buildings. But if you're living in a building that used to be an office building or a factory then it's not necessarily going to have a doorman. This applies to a lot of the old industrial buildings in SoHo, Chelsea, the meatpacking district, Union Square, etc. It's basically impossible to change where the elevator shaft of a building is after it's been built, because it's part of the structural support system of the building, so you can't just move everything around to add a lobby and front desk to the ground floor after the fact.
- mtalantikite 6y ago
  For sure, there are exceptions. A friend of mine is in one of those old SoHo buildings that was converted to luxury apartments, and the doorman in the lobby is basically just at a desk someone threw into the corner of the entrance since there is no room for anything else.
nihonde 6y ago
That’s putting a lot of trust in the doorman. Having lived in doorman buildings in Manhattan for a long time, I definitely considered the building staff as much (or more) of a security risk as any outsiders.
dialamac 6y ago
There’s plenty of newer “boutique” buildings in Manhattan/Brooklyn with the elevator direct to apartment without a doorman. It’s not necessarily more expensive to do it this way if you think about it. You don’t need a lobby or halls on each floor for one.

stefan_ 6y ago

Okay, but most people are murdered by someone they knew (well).

stjohnswarts 6y ago
Very true. You're much more likely to be killed by someone out of rage or mental illness than being mugged and then shot as a random victim.
- andi999 6y ago
  The big difference is for the first case you can influence it very strongly, the second one is indiscriminate. So the personal risk for you (and for me) might be much higher for the random mugging case.
greyhair 6y ago
And I have to wonder if that is what happened in this case.

azinman2 6y ago

Would you have a house with windows on the street? Do you walk outside without body armor and a bullet proof vest? Get in a cab... without knowing the driver or having bullet proof glass? Society wouldn't be very fun or fruitful if we all lived in secure underground bunkers.

dreae 6y ago
You can tell when someone's broken your window
- azinman2 6y ago
  So you’re afraid of coming home and there’s someone hiding in the house? How often does this actually happen compared to homes secured differently? It’s not like most houses have some impossible to pick locks...
throwanem 6y ago
There's a qualitative difference between wanting to live in a bunker, and having the front door key to my house be on the Internet for anyone with a blank and a bastard file to copy in half an hour. Not that penthouse problems will ever be my problems, granted. But let's not be too absurd here.
- esoterica 6y ago
  Almost every single family home on the planet can be broken into just by smashing a window. That's a far bigger vulnerability than the possibility of hacking someone's elevator. Most burglars are not very tech savvy but everyone knows how to swing a hammer.
  - baddox 6y ago
    I think there are a lot of people who wouldn’t break a window to steal from a house but who would steal from a house if they found the door key.

awb 6y ago

Doesn't seem to be the issue in this case: > One of the law enforcement officials said a surveillance camera had captured video of Mr. Saleh in the building’s elevator with another person who was wearing a black suit and black mask. On the video, the elevator door opens and Mr. Saleh goes into the apartment, the official said. The masked person follows directly behind him, and the two immediately start to struggle, the official said.

glenstein 6y ago
Is that quote from a different article? I'm either not seeing it in the article or my ctrl+F powers are failing me.
- fouc 6y ago
  yeah, dang mentions the link was changed a couple of times
  - glenstein 6y ago
    Thanks. By the time I got here dang's comments were buried on pg 2.
- awb 6y ago
  It's from the NYT article originally associated with this post: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/nyregion/dismembered-body-houston-street-manhattan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/nyregion/dismembered-body...
awb 6y ago
And from a recent update: https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-decapitated-limbless-manhattan-murder-nypd-20200715-hqibzmrtgbhj7dwwubtaiolsa4-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-decapitate... > The worried sister went to the apartment because she hadn’t seen her brother in a day, and arrived only to find his butchered body, cops said. > The suspect bolted via a staircase as the sister rode the elevator upstairs to visit victim Fahim Saleh, with her impending arrival interrupting the killer’s efforts to scrub the bloody condo clean and dispose of the body, the source said. > “He was dressed like a ninja, full out, so you can’t even see his face,” the source said. “He clearly knew what he was doing. We think his intent was to get rid of the body parts and go back and clean it up and make it look like nothing happened. He left before he finished the job.” > The assassin stabbed him repeatedly in the chest to kill him, according to his autopsy results. He used a stun gun to incapacitate Saleh before murdering him, police sources said. > A police source indicated investigators believed the grisly execution was prompted by a business deal gone lethally bad.

sgc 6y ago

You can always install your own door in your own apartment.