5 ms·

Go look at the schools in poor Black neighborhoods in Cleveland, Chicago, Boston, Columbus, Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinnatti. You will find buildings in disre

Go look at the schools in poor Black neighborhoods in Cleveland, Chicago, Boston, Columbus, Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinnatti. You will find buildings in disrepair, lacking basic things like air conditioning. Last year, Columbus City Schools cancelled classes several days because it was too hot. If you look at teachers' salaries, the city school districts pay significantly less than the surrounding suburbs, while having higher student/teacher ratios and a disproportionate number of students with Individualized Education Plans, that are English-learners, or that have other unique challenges to overcome. Standardized testing shows these schools, as one migh expect, have far poorer learning outcomes for their students, as well. I can't tell you why your numbers appear to show otherwise, but anyone can easily verify that there is an enormous disparity between the quality of schools attended by residents of poor--often mostly Black--school districts and that attended by residents of wealthier--typically whiter--school districts.

bigtechdataeng 6y ago
It could be private funding that makes up the difference. Or that money is spent elsewhere (maybe more counseling, meals, etc) Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data, assuming the data exists ave is accurate (I didn’t check).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data Data can easily be used to lie or conceal, and if the observed conditions are clearly inferior, then the data is qualitatively inaccurate and/or incomplete.
  - iguy 6y ago
    Seems like a puzzle worth understanding. If the budgets & class sizes are similar, and the teacher salaries are lower in tough schools, then what is the rest spent on? In some countries I would guess that the budget is being pocketed along the way, but I doubt that's the case here. Is there sufficient extra off-the-books spending in rich areas to explain the difference? e.g. a volunteer donating to fix the AC? While I'm sure there are anecdotes I'm dubious this could add up to enough. I thought that in fact teacher salaries were higher in tough schools (and that, when they got sick of it, teachers would take a pay cut to teach in a nice suburb instead) but this was from conversations, and looking for data, it does look like average salaries are higher in rich areas (although for more senior teachers), and class sizes a little smaller, although I haven't dug very deep.
    - istjohn 6y ago
      I agree it's a worth exploring. Just spitballing, part of it may be the cost of maintaining old buildings, particularly when changing demographics lead to over-capacity in some neighborhoods and under-capacity in others. It may also stem from financial mismanagement. There is generally less parental engagement, since poor families have more pressing concerns, so it's easier for waste or fraud to go unchecked. I don't know, none of these explanations are particularly convincing.
    - sct202 6y ago
      A lot of schools use teachers aides to support kids with special needs, like Chicago has 12k teachers, 4k special ed classroom assistants, and 3.7k special ed teachers. So like the top line teacher to student ratio may be similar to a suburban school, but I doubt that the suburban schools have that high of a ratio of special ed support staff and teachers. https://cps.edu/About_CPS/Financial_information/Pages/EmployeePositionFiles.aspx https://cps.edu/About_CPS/Financial_information/Pages/Employ...
      - iguy 6y ago
        Thanks. Those are huge numbers, 40% of teaching staff who (it seems) don't count as teachers. Presumably these totals include richer & poorer parts of the city, and if it's skewed then the proportion may be even higher in the poorer bits? (Or will all the richer bits be outside Chicago school district?)
distances 6y ago
> You will find buildings in disrepair, lacking basic things like air conditioning. Offtopic, but schools are closed for the summer. How many US states need air conditioning in schools? Honest question as an outsider who's never lived in an apartment with AC.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Offtopic, but schools are closed for the summer. A very substantial share of schools either have a year round schedule or (especially for secondary schools) offer a summer session if main instruction is on a traditional schedule.
- istjohn 6y ago
  My anecdote is from Columbus, Ohio, so I'd say a lot of states do considering Columbus' latitude.
dtwest 6y ago
Having grown up in Cleveland and having spent plenty of time in Detroit, it is true that the school systems are in very bad condition. However, quite shockingly, they spend more per student than the nicer suburban school systems. I don't know why this is, or how it is explained, if anyone knows I'd be all ears. It does seem like teachers get paid more in the suburbs, so that's not the reason. If I remember correctly, I saw some data suggesting that administration and building expenses are much higher, but it's hard to imagine they are getting their money's worth given the current state of things.

bigtechdataeng 6y ago

It could be private funding that makes up the difference. Or that money is spent elsewhere (maybe more counseling, meals, etc) Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data, assuming the data exists ave is accurate (I didn’t check).

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nitrogen 6y ago
Looking at the conditions externally should not be enough to contradict data Data can easily be used to lie or conceal, and if the observed conditions are clearly inferior, then the data is qualitatively inaccurate and/or incomplete.
- iguy 6y ago
  Seems like a puzzle worth understanding. If the budgets & class sizes are similar, and the teacher salaries are lower in tough schools, then what is the rest spent on? In some countries I would guess that the budget is being pocketed along the way, but I doubt that's the case here. Is there sufficient extra off-the-books spending in rich areas to explain the difference? e.g. a volunteer donating to fix the AC? While I'm sure there are anecdotes I'm dubious this could add up to enough. I thought that in fact teacher salaries were higher in tough schools (and that, when they got sick of it, teachers would take a pay cut to teach in a nice suburb instead) but this was from conversations, and looking for data, it does look like average salaries are higher in rich areas (although for more senior teachers), and class sizes a little smaller, although I haven't dug very deep.
  - istjohn 6y ago
    I agree it's a worth exploring. Just spitballing, part of it may be the cost of maintaining old buildings, particularly when changing demographics lead to over-capacity in some neighborhoods and under-capacity in others. It may also stem from financial mismanagement. There is generally less parental engagement, since poor families have more pressing concerns, so it's easier for waste or fraud to go unchecked. I don't know, none of these explanations are particularly convincing.
  - sct202 6y ago
    A lot of schools use teachers aides to support kids with special needs, like Chicago has 12k teachers, 4k special ed classroom assistants, and 3.7k special ed teachers. So like the top line teacher to student ratio may be similar to a suburban school, but I doubt that the suburban schools have that high of a ratio of special ed support staff and teachers. https://cps.edu/About_CPS/Financial_information/Pages/EmployeePositionFiles.aspx https://cps.edu/About_CPS/Financial_information/Pages/Employ...
    - iguy 6y ago
      Thanks. Those are huge numbers, 40% of teaching staff who (it seems) don't count as teachers. Presumably these totals include richer & poorer parts of the city, and if it's skewed then the proportion may be even higher in the poorer bits? (Or will all the richer bits be outside Chicago school district?)

distances 6y ago

> You will find buildings in disrepair, lacking basic things like air conditioning. Offtopic, but schools are closed for the summer. How many US states need air conditioning in schools? Honest question as an outsider who's never lived in an apartment with AC.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> Offtopic, but schools are closed for the summer. A very substantial share of schools either have a year round schedule or (especially for secondary schools) offer a summer session if main instruction is on a traditional schedule.
istjohn 6y ago
My anecdote is from Columbus, Ohio, so I'd say a lot of states do considering Columbus' latitude.

dtwest 6y ago

Having grown up in Cleveland and having spent plenty of time in Detroit, it is true that the school systems are in very bad condition. However, quite shockingly, they spend more per student than the nicer suburban school systems. I don't know why this is, or how it is explained, if anyone knows I'd be all ears. It does seem like teachers get paid more in the suburbs, so that's not the reason. If I remember correctly, I saw some data suggesting that administration and building expenses are much higher, but it's hard to imagine they are getting their money's worth given the current state of things.