6 ms·

This isn't right. Group behavior should not affect individuals in this way.

boomboomsubban 6y ago
I don't disagree, though it's worth noting that the CIA seems to engage in the same practice. https://news.yahoo.com/secret-trump-order-gives-cia-more-powers-to-launch-cyberattacks-090015219.html https://news.yahoo.com/secret-trump-order-gives-cia-more-pow...
- LargesseBargess 6y ago
  I'm not sure the CIA counts if this was used as a whataboutism argument by someone. Cyberwarfare is in legit contention as a space for state actors to work against each other. The police hack seemed like a hacktivist thinking doxxing cops was the way to support BLM when it could very easily ruin people's lives without a fair audit/trial.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    By this logic, if the BlueLeaks hacks have something to do with Russia you would find them acceptable.
- handedness 6y ago
  The fact that state-level actors are doing this kind of thing is all the more reason to foster a domestic culture of refusing to be manipulated by it. Otherwise, we'll wind up in a place where relatively small digital ad buys by foreign actors can create years-long mass hysteria.
thereisnospork 6y ago
Why shouldn't it? Putting on a uniform assumes responsibility for the positions and actions of the represented organization - here the various police forces and unions of the United States. Police officers aren't being judged or punished for the color of their skin, creed, religion, or sexuality but their choices. I find it hard to stomach the idea that people shouldn't be judged for the organizations they choose to represent.
- sebazzz 6y ago
  > Police officers aren't being judged or punished for the color of their skin, creed, religion, or sexuality but their choices. No, many police officers are now being punished for being police officers. You would just be doing your job properly - no racist actions anything unjust - and now these details leak out. Yes there are police officers which are racist, I don't have data so I won't say few nor many, but there are. That doesn't justify this.
  - RangerScience 6y ago
    > being punished for being police officers. Some of the logic is that bad police behavior is widespread enough that every "good" cop works closely enough with at least one "bad" cop, and yet via observation of outcomes, does not correct that bad cop's behavior (or doesn't correct it enough). They're thus complicit AKA bad cops themselves, and thus there are _no_ good police - everyone is sufficiently tainted. The Godwin's Law version of this logic at work elsewhere is the German saying "if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis." The folk wisdom encoding "a few bad apples spoil the bunch". Doesn't matter if they were good apples going in, they're all bad apples now: the bunch is spoiled. (Not expressing an opinion on the correctness of this thinking, just explaining what I know of it)
    - CodeAndCuffs 6y ago
      There are 700000 cops in America. I can name maybe 200. I've personally worked with maybe 50. I investigated 1, and could find no evidence of crime, though he realistically was likely committing some. Out of 700000 cops I guarantee some are the scum of the earth who should be locked away forever. I don't know where they are. I can't effect that It's like getting mad at the manager or an applebee's in Chicago because the waiter spit in your food at an olive garden in Seattle.
      - RangerScience 6y ago
        What was your process for investigation? Given that process, what crimes, if any, would you have found in the cases of, say, George Floyd or Breona Taylor?
RangerScience 6y ago
"Should" is a funny word. Seems to be used mostly when one's ideas about how reality "should" work come up against how reality "does" work; from orbital procession to the photoelectric effect. "Should" is an opportunity many don't take to go "huh, that's funny" and learn something about reality. "Group behavior should not affect individuals in this way" according to what principles and theories? It does - so, which of those principles and theories are wrong or incomplete? What other forces are at work? Are any of these factors the sort that can be effected by human civilization design, or do they arise from things we can't meaningfully effect? If they're designed, what're the Chesterton's Fences around them?
- iRobbery 6y ago
  I start every git commit with "Should ..." :-)
  - RangerScience 6y ago
    True tho innit? "These code changes _should_ result in these functionality changes, _if_ I have reasoned and programmed correctly, and haven't missed anything."
tehjoker 6y ago
I wonder if LEOs say that about gangs. If you think this is controversial today, the southern police evolved from slave catchers. If you think that cultural history is irrelevant today, I have a confederate flag to sell you. (Not really, I don't actually collect flags from white slavocracies.) https://lawenforcementmuseum.org/2019/07/10/slave-patrols-an-early-form-of-american-policing/ https://lawenforcementmuseum.org/2019/07/10/slave-patrols-an...
- pmiller2 6y ago
  If you had an actual, authentic Confederate battle flag to sell me, at a price I could afford, I would buy it. There are only a few in existence, and it would be an amazing historical artifact I'd love to help preserve.
  - tehjoker 6y ago
    Gross. Put it in a museum.

I don't disagree, though it's worth noting that the CIA seems to engage in the same practice. https://news.yahoo.com/secret-trump-order-gives-cia-more-powers-to-launch-cyberattacks-090015219.html https://news.yahoo.com/secret-trump-order-gives-cia-more-pow...

LargesseBargess 6y ago
I'm not sure the CIA counts if this was used as a whataboutism argument by someone. Cyberwarfare is in legit contention as a space for state actors to work against each other. The police hack seemed like a hacktivist thinking doxxing cops was the way to support BLM when it could very easily ruin people's lives without a fair audit/trial.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  By this logic, if the BlueLeaks hacks have something to do with Russia you would find them acceptable.
handedness 6y ago
The fact that state-level actors are doing this kind of thing is all the more reason to foster a domestic culture of refusing to be manipulated by it. Otherwise, we'll wind up in a place where relatively small digital ad buys by foreign actors can create years-long mass hysteria.

thereisnospork 6y ago

Why shouldn't it? Putting on a uniform assumes responsibility for the positions and actions of the represented organization - here the various police forces and unions of the United States. Police officers aren't being judged or punished for the color of their skin, creed, religion, or sexuality but their choices. I find it hard to stomach the idea that people shouldn't be judged for the organizations they choose to represent.

sebazzz 6y ago
> Police officers aren't being judged or punished for the color of their skin, creed, religion, or sexuality but their choices. No, many police officers are now being punished for being police officers. You would just be doing your job properly - no racist actions anything unjust - and now these details leak out. Yes there are police officers which are racist, I don't have data so I won't say few nor many, but there are. That doesn't justify this.
- RangerScience 6y ago
  > being punished for being police officers. Some of the logic is that bad police behavior is widespread enough that every "good" cop works closely enough with at least one "bad" cop, and yet via observation of outcomes, does not correct that bad cop's behavior (or doesn't correct it enough). They're thus complicit AKA bad cops themselves, and thus there are _no_ good police - everyone is sufficiently tainted. The Godwin's Law version of this logic at work elsewhere is the German saying "if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis." The folk wisdom encoding "a few bad apples spoil the bunch". Doesn't matter if they were good apples going in, they're all bad apples now: the bunch is spoiled. (Not expressing an opinion on the correctness of this thinking, just explaining what I know of it)
  - CodeAndCuffs 6y ago
    There are 700000 cops in America. I can name maybe 200. I've personally worked with maybe 50. I investigated 1, and could find no evidence of crime, though he realistically was likely committing some. Out of 700000 cops I guarantee some are the scum of the earth who should be locked away forever. I don't know where they are. I can't effect that It's like getting mad at the manager or an applebee's in Chicago because the waiter spit in your food at an olive garden in Seattle.
    - RangerScience 6y ago
      What was your process for investigation? Given that process, what crimes, if any, would you have found in the cases of, say, George Floyd or Breona Taylor?

RangerScience 6y ago

"Should" is a funny word. Seems to be used mostly when one's ideas about how reality "should" work come up against how reality "does" work; from orbital procession to the photoelectric effect. "Should" is an opportunity many don't take to go "huh, that's funny" and learn something about reality. "Group behavior should not affect individuals in this way" according to what principles and theories? It does - so, which of those principles and theories are wrong or incomplete? What other forces are at work? Are any of these factors the sort that can be effected by human civilization design, or do they arise from things we can't meaningfully effect? If they're designed, what're the Chesterton's Fences around them?

iRobbery 6y ago
I start every git commit with "Should ..." :-)
- RangerScience 6y ago
  True tho innit? "These code changes _should_ result in these functionality changes, _if_ I have reasoned and programmed correctly, and haven't missed anything."

tehjoker 6y ago

I wonder if LEOs say that about gangs. If you think this is controversial today, the southern police evolved from slave catchers. If you think that cultural history is irrelevant today, I have a confederate flag to sell you. (Not really, I don't actually collect flags from white slavocracies.) https://lawenforcementmuseum.org/2019/07/10/slave-patrols-an-early-form-of-american-policing/ https://lawenforcementmuseum.org/2019/07/10/slave-patrols-an...

pmiller2 6y ago
If you had an actual, authentic Confederate battle flag to sell me, at a price I could afford, I would buy it. There are only a few in existence, and it would be an amazing historical artifact I'd love to help preserve.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  Gross. Put it in a museum.