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> How do people building these things become convinced this is ok? Because they have the data proving that opt-in telemetry means no telemetry. Every time this

> How do people building these things become convinced this is ok? Because they have the data proving that opt-in telemetry means no telemetry. Every time this topic comes up, HN sticks its fingers in its ears and refuses to accept this, but it's the truth. 99% of users, even for a developer-focused application like VSCode, just click through and accept the defaults. So if you want telemetry that isn't useless for any practical purposes, it has to be opt-out. If you want, you can have a separate argument about whether having the telemetry is worth it, but if you've had that discussion and decided the answer is yes, then opt-out follows immediately from that.

GekkePrutser 6y ago
Just because a supplier wants to have telemetry doesn't suddenly make it ethical to do opt-out (or even forced like MS does with Windows 10!). If they care about their users and it's not possible to have worthwhile telemetry with opt-in, they simply can't have it.
- Analemma_ 6y ago
  That's a strange definition of "can't". VSCode can and does, and it's the most popular editor in the world [0]. [0]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-environments-and-tools https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-e...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    It's the same definition that says you "can't" steal your coworkers' lunch as they are eating it.
on9wim5R 6y ago
Indeed, I wouldn't try to find a case for "good telemetry", it basically means snooping, as far as I'm concerned. And this is not even something that can't be replaced : if you want to know about your users habits, ask them. I would have no problem with seeing once in a while a broadcast message after syncing packages showing me an url of a poll. But automatic data collection is never ok.
jkaplowitz 6y ago
I've heard the same data as you. But I haven't heard data on what happens if you force people to make a choice about the telemetry upon install, without offering a default. Like, instead of having a prechecked box that people would have to notice and uncheck before proceeding or a greyed out "maybe later" button, what about two different continue buttons labeled "yes, help us improve with anonymous statistics" or "no, I'd rather not contribute"? (Either way with a link available to more details in the privacy policy before deciding.) My guess is that it would be less useful telemetry than opt-in, more useful than opt-out, and a slight obstacle to sign-ups for consumer webapps but not much of an obstacle to enterprise webapps or anything pre-downloaded. Maybe it's still useful and smooth enough to be the right balance vs privacy?

GekkePrutser 6y ago

Just because a supplier wants to have telemetry doesn't suddenly make it ethical to do opt-out (or even forced like MS does with Windows 10!). If they care about their users and it's not possible to have worthwhile telemetry with opt-in, they simply can't have it.

Analemma_ 6y ago
That's a strange definition of "can't". VSCode can and does, and it's the most popular editor in the world [0]. [0]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-environments-and-tools https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-e...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nitrogen 6y ago
  It's the same definition that says you "can't" steal your coworkers' lunch as they are eating it.

on9wim5R 6y ago

Indeed, I wouldn't try to find a case for "good telemetry", it basically means snooping, as far as I'm concerned. And this is not even something that can't be replaced : if you want to know about your users habits, ask them. I would have no problem with seeing once in a while a broadcast message after syncing packages showing me an url of a poll. But automatic data collection is never ok.

jkaplowitz 6y ago

I've heard the same data as you. But I haven't heard data on what happens if you force people to make a choice about the telemetry upon install, without offering a default. Like, instead of having a prechecked box that people would have to notice and uncheck before proceeding or a greyed out "maybe later" button, what about two different continue buttons labeled "yes, help us improve with anonymous statistics" or "no, I'd rather not contribute"? (Either way with a link available to more details in the privacy policy before deciding.) My guess is that it would be less useful telemetry than opt-in, more useful than opt-out, and a slight obstacle to sign-ups for consumer webapps but not much of an obstacle to enterprise webapps or anything pre-downloaded. Maybe it's still useful and smooth enough to be the right balance vs privacy?