4 ms·

You can fix that by going into stores dressed as a homeless person or any other out-group that contain white people that the store owner/employees in-group has

by belorn 6y ago

You can fix that by going into stores dressed as a homeless person or any other out-group that contain white people that the store owner/employees in-group has likely an negative emotional response to. For maximal negative response, portrait yourself as a male with, low social economic status, different race, different biological markers, and signals of different cultural values. As per research this will likely result in activation of fear, disgust and low activation of empathy.

coryfklein 6y ago
The OP's point holds true. Consider a clean and showered young male that is not dressed like a homeless person. This is generally quite achievable for most of the poor population. This individual will experience problems if his skin is black that he wouldn't experience if his skin is white.
- baskire 6y ago
  Out of naivety, do you believe that a black person cleanly shaved wearing a button down and slacks would still have that experience? Do you think a white person dressed in gangster clothes would be unscathed? My current opinion is that the biggest factor is not race but likelihood of fitting a stereotype of "criminal" based on dress code
  - frenchyatwork 6y ago
    You're probably mostly concerned with the American experience, so this might be tangential to you. I grew up as a white ex-pat in a Philippines. While I don't think I ever tried to abuse it, but I could definitely get away with a lot of things even if I dressed as a hobbo/gangster.
  - tguedes 6y ago
    In most places in the US, the black guy with nice suit will be less likely to have that experience than a homeless looking white guy. But a black guy with a nice suit will experience it more than a white guy with a nice suit.
  - coryfklein 6y ago
    I'm merely talking about controlling for variables. If you keep the outfit the same and only change the skin color you'll see a difference. I have no idea which direction the change starts to lean when you change clothing, smell, age and or other factors all at the same time.
joshuamorton 6y ago
Sure, but economically equivalent white and black people have different experiences. That's a privilege under the definition. That more affluent-appearing black people are treated like less affluent looking white people isn't proof that white privilege doesn't exist. It's the opposite.
- Tainnor 6y ago
  You're technically right, but the argument that "given otherwise identical circumstances, white people are less oppressed than black people" (or whatever) has the issues that a) "otherwise identical circumstances" almost never exist and b) this argument is often even being used when the otherwise circumstances are clearly not identical (I remember an online discussion where people were called out for criticising Beyoncé, who must have it really hard as a black woman - which, sure, she might have, but she's also crazy rich and a prominent media figure, so she also has privilege; and then again, even not having privilege doesn't mean you should be immune to criticism). I don't question the notion of privilege as much as how often it's applied to shut down dissenting opinion.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    Privilege isn't a binary thing. You aren't privileged or not. Many people have some forms of privilege and not others. An affluent white woman and a homeless black man have very different life experiences, each has privileges that the other doesn't. Fighting about which is more privileged is silly (even if it may seem obvious to you). What's ultimately important is to understand situations in which those privileges will affect the experiences of those people. As for Beyonce, that's so vague that I can't know. If she was describing the challenges of being black in the recording industry, then yes using her success to claim she can't understand the challenges she's had to overcome is ridiculous. But in other contexts, that she's affluent is relevant.
    - Tainnor 6y ago
      I don't disagree with you. Understanding privilege is important. But you may not have witnessed the ridiculous discussions that I have sometimes seen. The context was that people were complaining about her sexualised persona and what kind of image that projects onto young women. I don't necessarily agree with that criticism (I think it's kinda complex, but I also don't think that sex or being sexual is "wrong" or anything), but I thought that the criticism of "she's a black woman, so if she wants to be sexual, that's her way of reasserting her black femininity and may not be criticised" is frankly ridiculous, when she's clearly benefiting financially so well from it.
Spivak 6y ago
Am I missing something because I feel like we're agreeing? Because everything you mentioned are good examples of other forms of privilege, or I guess lack thereof. I'm always so surprised in internet discussions that people will readily acknowledge lots of forms of privilege but then turn around and be like "white privilege" or "male privilege" -- naaah anything like that can be explained by these other 300 types of privilege. Like "black privilege" and "female privilege" exist too -- it's just a language for describing how the different facets of ourselves change how we're treated. Privilege being the word for describing when that facet helps you not experience "worse than normal" treatment than people without it might -- contrasted with "advantage", when you get "better than normal" treatment for having it.
- philwelch 6y ago
  > Like "black privilege" and "female privilege" exist too -- it's just a language for describing how the different facets of ourselves change how we're treated. In my experience, a lot of people who use the word “privilege” will get very very very upset at that claim. To them, “privilege” is fundamentally connected to groups. It wouldn’t make sense for both male privilege and female privilege to exist; the whole point is that males are collectively privileged relative to females. I think what you’re describing is a better fit for reality.
- belorn 6y ago
  Yes, we might be agreeing on most points. To me it is biology. A set of factors contribute to fear and disgust when people meet and an other set of factors trigger empathy and cooperation. We can use the word privilege to mean, in a given environment, having more triggers than someone else for the positive effects and less triggers for the negative effects. The resulting individual experience is the sum of interactions. Some trait has stronger effect than others such as social economic status and kinship. Close to that comes gender, although sometimes it can also be the strongest factor. Research into this subject generally show a strong environmental aspect to this as well. I would not use "white privilege" in an online discussion because it often than not lead the discussion away from the complexity of in-group and out-group interactions and into the realm of blame and over simplification. The most insightful thing anyone can really make about white privilege is that being rich, healthy, appeasing appearance, surrounded by a strong majority of in-group members (preferable kinship) that have similar cultural values, then being white is also a benefit as long as the other in-group members are also majority white.
kodt 6y ago
Sure, but that doesn't invalidate the racial part of it. Yes a white person who appears to be homeless or a meth addict will be looked at suspiciously. But a black person is much more likely to be profiled simply because of their skin color than a white person. That is white privilege. White privilege doesn't mean all white people are born with trust funds from the left over plantation money.

by belorn 6y ago

coryfklein 6y ago

The OP's point holds true. Consider a clean and showered young male that is not dressed like a homeless person. This is generally quite achievable for most of the poor population. This individual will experience problems if his skin is black that he wouldn't experience if his skin is white.

baskire 6y ago
Out of naivety, do you believe that a black person cleanly shaved wearing a button down and slacks would still have that experience? Do you think a white person dressed in gangster clothes would be unscathed? My current opinion is that the biggest factor is not race but likelihood of fitting a stereotype of "criminal" based on dress code
- frenchyatwork 6y ago
  You're probably mostly concerned with the American experience, so this might be tangential to you. I grew up as a white ex-pat in a Philippines. While I don't think I ever tried to abuse it, but I could definitely get away with a lot of things even if I dressed as a hobbo/gangster.
- tguedes 6y ago
  In most places in the US, the black guy with nice suit will be less likely to have that experience than a homeless looking white guy. But a black guy with a nice suit will experience it more than a white guy with a nice suit.
- coryfklein 6y ago
  I'm merely talking about controlling for variables. If you keep the outfit the same and only change the skin color you'll see a difference. I have no idea which direction the change starts to lean when you change clothing, smell, age and or other factors all at the same time.

joshuamorton 6y ago

Sure, but economically equivalent white and black people have different experiences. That's a privilege under the definition. That more affluent-appearing black people are treated like less affluent looking white people isn't proof that white privilege doesn't exist. It's the opposite.

Tainnor 6y ago
You're technically right, but the argument that "given otherwise identical circumstances, white people are less oppressed than black people" (or whatever) has the issues that a) "otherwise identical circumstances" almost never exist and b) this argument is often even being used when the otherwise circumstances are clearly not identical (I remember an online discussion where people were called out for criticising Beyoncé, who must have it really hard as a black woman - which, sure, she might have, but she's also crazy rich and a prominent media figure, so she also has privilege; and then again, even not having privilege doesn't mean you should be immune to criticism). I don't question the notion of privilege as much as how often it's applied to shut down dissenting opinion.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  Privilege isn't a binary thing. You aren't privileged or not. Many people have some forms of privilege and not others. An affluent white woman and a homeless black man have very different life experiences, each has privileges that the other doesn't. Fighting about which is more privileged is silly (even if it may seem obvious to you). What's ultimately important is to understand situations in which those privileges will affect the experiences of those people. As for Beyonce, that's so vague that I can't know. If she was describing the challenges of being black in the recording industry, then yes using her success to claim she can't understand the challenges she's had to overcome is ridiculous. But in other contexts, that she's affluent is relevant.
  - Tainnor 6y ago
    I don't disagree with you. Understanding privilege is important. But you may not have witnessed the ridiculous discussions that I have sometimes seen. The context was that people were complaining about her sexualised persona and what kind of image that projects onto young women. I don't necessarily agree with that criticism (I think it's kinda complex, but I also don't think that sex or being sexual is "wrong" or anything), but I thought that the criticism of "she's a black woman, so if she wants to be sexual, that's her way of reasserting her black femininity and may not be criticised" is frankly ridiculous, when she's clearly benefiting financially so well from it.

Spivak 6y ago

Am I missing something because I feel like we're agreeing? Because everything you mentioned are good examples of other forms of privilege, or I guess lack thereof. I'm always so surprised in internet discussions that people will readily acknowledge lots of forms of privilege but then turn around and be like "white privilege" or "male privilege" -- naaah anything like that can be explained by these other 300 types of privilege. Like "black privilege" and "female privilege" exist too -- it's just a language for describing how the different facets of ourselves change how we're treated. Privilege being the word for describing when that facet helps you not experience "worse than normal" treatment than people without it might -- contrasted with "advantage", when you get "better than normal" treatment for having it.

philwelch 6y ago
> Like "black privilege" and "female privilege" exist too -- it's just a language for describing how the different facets of ourselves change how we're treated. In my experience, a lot of people who use the word “privilege” will get very very very upset at that claim. To them, “privilege” is fundamentally connected to groups. It wouldn’t make sense for both male privilege and female privilege to exist; the whole point is that males are collectively privileged relative to females. I think what you’re describing is a better fit for reality.
belorn 6y ago
Yes, we might be agreeing on most points. To me it is biology. A set of factors contribute to fear and disgust when people meet and an other set of factors trigger empathy and cooperation. We can use the word privilege to mean, in a given environment, having more triggers than someone else for the positive effects and less triggers for the negative effects. The resulting individual experience is the sum of interactions. Some trait has stronger effect than others such as social economic status and kinship. Close to that comes gender, although sometimes it can also be the strongest factor. Research into this subject generally show a strong environmental aspect to this as well. I would not use "white privilege" in an online discussion because it often than not lead the discussion away from the complexity of in-group and out-group interactions and into the realm of blame and over simplification. The most insightful thing anyone can really make about white privilege is that being rich, healthy, appeasing appearance, surrounded by a strong majority of in-group members (preferable kinship) that have similar cultural values, then being white is also a benefit as long as the other in-group members are also majority white.

kodt 6y ago

Sure, but that doesn't invalidate the racial part of it. Yes a white person who appears to be homeless or a meth addict will be looked at suspiciously. But a black person is much more likely to be profiled simply because of their skin color than a white person. That is white privilege. White privilege doesn't mean all white people are born with trust funds from the left over plantation money.