5 ms·

Geese, I’m surprised they were doing it to begin with! This sort of thing is why I won’t touch VScode and fsharp. How do people building these things become co

by swiley 6y ago

Geese, I’m surprised they were doing it to begin with! This sort of thing is why I won’t touch VScode and fsharp. How do people building these things become convinced this is ok?

Twirrim 6y ago
popularity-contest comes from Debian. They introduced it quite a while ago as a way to help prioritise maintenance work etc.
- notRobot 6y ago
  I don't know about Ubuntu, but while installing Debian it makes it very clear what popularity-contest does and asks the user for explicit consent. The default option is "I do not wish to participate", so if someone isn't paying attention during the install process and just hits 'Enter', their privacy remains intact. This, IMO, is the perfect way to do telemetry.
  - lewiscollard 6y ago
    On Ubuntu you still have to explicitly enable it - and unless I missed something in my last couple of Ubuntu installs you are never prompted to enable it during installation. If you want to opt in, you have to do a dpkg-reconfigure and even then the default is still "No". This is not privacy-hostile in any meaningful way.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      Is the hubbub about popularity contest or about the Snap store?
      - Shared404 6y ago
        It's about popcon, except for the people who didn't read the article.
  - Twirrim 6y ago
    The default in Ubuntu is to ask you at install time if you want it installed / enabled or not, for about as long as I remember, and I've been using Ubuntu for since ~5.04ish days.
bansheehash 6y ago
Try VSCodium, which is VSCode without MS telemetry: https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium
vaxman 6y ago
Really? I thought it was common knowledge that UK are brutal about surveillance. James Bond and Kingsman, CCTV on every corner, Canonical CEO dismissing privacy concerns in new products “because you already trust us when we sign the packages” ...
Analemma_ 6y ago
> How do people building these things become convinced this is ok? Because they have the data proving that opt-in telemetry means no telemetry. Every time this topic comes up, HN sticks its fingers in its ears and refuses to accept this, but it's the truth. 99% of users, even for a developer-focused application like VSCode, just click through and accept the defaults. So if you want telemetry that isn't useless for any practical purposes, it has to be opt-out. If you want, you can have a separate argument about whether having the telemetry is worth it, but if you've had that discussion and decided the answer is yes, then opt-out follows immediately from that.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  Just because a supplier wants to have telemetry doesn't suddenly make it ethical to do opt-out (or even forced like MS does with Windows 10!). If they care about their users and it's not possible to have worthwhile telemetry with opt-in, they simply can't have it.
  - Analemma_ 6y ago
    That's a strange definition of "can't". VSCode can and does, and it's the most popular editor in the world [0]. [0]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-environments-and-tools https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-e...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      It's the same definition that says you "can't" steal your coworkers' lunch as they are eating it.
- on9wim5R 6y ago
  Indeed, I wouldn't try to find a case for "good telemetry", it basically means snooping, as far as I'm concerned. And this is not even something that can't be replaced : if you want to know about your users habits, ask them. I would have no problem with seeing once in a while a broadcast message after syncing packages showing me an url of a poll. But automatic data collection is never ok.
Jonnax 6y ago
Because they want to know what to continue developing or what to deprecate. The reasoning is simple.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  The reasoning is simple. The reality is complex. Always, always think about second order effects.
  - throwaway43234 6y ago
    What are the second order effects? What's this "complex reality" you're living in? VSCode gives you a log of every telemetry event it sends, none contain PII (if they do that'd be a serious issue and should be reported) and it provides a settings page to list and opt-out of every online service (including telemetry).
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      It's a loss of the trust of your users. It's ever harsher data protection laws. It's the vehement reaction you get when you say to someone, "your personal space is mine for the taking, and maybe I'll take a little less of it if you beg me to stop." It's the slippery slope of dark patterns to cajole and conceal and browbeat users into avoiding the opt-out. It's the camel that starts with its nose and then quickly removes you from your own tent. It's the grab first, apologize later modern world of capitalistic exploitation all in the name of gaming the quarterly numbers. It's the next paving stone on the road to your users crying out "We're mad as hell and we aren't going to take it anymore!"
      - throwaway43234 6y ago
        Lol... always amusing when someone asks HNers what changes they'd like to see and why, and they respond with crazy analogies that are totally unactionable... not the first time this has happened, won't be the last.
rlpb 6y ago
As far as I'm aware, it's always been opt-in on Ubuntu as it is on Debian.
Multicomp 6y ago
> and fsharp Come again? Is there telemetry in the F# compiler I didn't know about? Or you mean that OOTB VSCode has telemetry, so you won't use it for your F# code, opting instead for a different text editor / IDE?
- swiley 6y ago
  Nothing says there isn’t. I was shocked when I heard vscode had telemetry even though it was open source and now I’m not sure I want to use any other open source stuff that comes from that company. Especially a compiler.

by swiley 6y ago

Geese, I’m surprised they were doing it to begin with! This sort of thing is why I won’t touch VScode and fsharp. How do people building these things become convinced this is ok?

Twirrim 6y ago

popularity-contest comes from Debian. They introduced it quite a while ago as a way to help prioritise maintenance work etc.

notRobot 6y ago
I don't know about Ubuntu, but while installing Debian it makes it very clear what popularity-contest does and asks the user for explicit consent. The default option is "I do not wish to participate", so if someone isn't paying attention during the install process and just hits 'Enter', their privacy remains intact. This, IMO, is the perfect way to do telemetry.
- lewiscollard 6y ago
  On Ubuntu you still have to explicitly enable it - and unless I missed something in my last couple of Ubuntu installs you are never prompted to enable it during installation. If you want to opt in, you have to do a dpkg-reconfigure and even then the default is still "No". This is not privacy-hostile in any meaningful way.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    Is the hubbub about popularity contest or about the Snap store?
    - Shared404 6y ago
      It's about popcon, except for the people who didn't read the article.
- Twirrim 6y ago
  The default in Ubuntu is to ask you at install time if you want it installed / enabled or not, for about as long as I remember, and I've been using Ubuntu for since ~5.04ish days.

bansheehash 6y ago

Try VSCodium, which is VSCode without MS telemetry: https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium

vaxman 6y ago

Really? I thought it was common knowledge that UK are brutal about surveillance. James Bond and Kingsman, CCTV on every corner, Canonical CEO dismissing privacy concerns in new products “because you already trust us when we sign the packages” ...

Analemma_ 6y ago

> How do people building these things become convinced this is ok? Because they have the data proving that opt-in telemetry means no telemetry. Every time this topic comes up, HN sticks its fingers in its ears and refuses to accept this, but it's the truth. 99% of users, even for a developer-focused application like VSCode, just click through and accept the defaults. So if you want telemetry that isn't useless for any practical purposes, it has to be opt-out. If you want, you can have a separate argument about whether having the telemetry is worth it, but if you've had that discussion and decided the answer is yes, then opt-out follows immediately from that.

GekkePrutser 6y ago
Just because a supplier wants to have telemetry doesn't suddenly make it ethical to do opt-out (or even forced like MS does with Windows 10!). If they care about their users and it's not possible to have worthwhile telemetry with opt-in, they simply can't have it.
- Analemma_ 6y ago
  That's a strange definition of "can't". VSCode can and does, and it's the most popular editor in the world [0]. [0]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-environments-and-tools https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-e...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    It's the same definition that says you "can't" steal your coworkers' lunch as they are eating it.
on9wim5R 6y ago
Indeed, I wouldn't try to find a case for "good telemetry", it basically means snooping, as far as I'm concerned. And this is not even something that can't be replaced : if you want to know about your users habits, ask them. I would have no problem with seeing once in a while a broadcast message after syncing packages showing me an url of a poll. But automatic data collection is never ok.

Jonnax 6y ago

Because they want to know what to continue developing or what to deprecate. The reasoning is simple.

nitrogen 6y ago
The reasoning is simple. The reality is complex. Always, always think about second order effects.
- throwaway43234 6y ago
  What are the second order effects? What's this "complex reality" you're living in? VSCode gives you a log of every telemetry event it sends, none contain PII (if they do that'd be a serious issue and should be reported) and it provides a settings page to list and opt-out of every online service (including telemetry).
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    It's a loss of the trust of your users. It's ever harsher data protection laws. It's the vehement reaction you get when you say to someone, "your personal space is mine for the taking, and maybe I'll take a little less of it if you beg me to stop." It's the slippery slope of dark patterns to cajole and conceal and browbeat users into avoiding the opt-out. It's the camel that starts with its nose and then quickly removes you from your own tent. It's the grab first, apologize later modern world of capitalistic exploitation all in the name of gaming the quarterly numbers. It's the next paving stone on the road to your users crying out "We're mad as hell and we aren't going to take it anymore!"
    - throwaway43234 6y ago
      Lol... always amusing when someone asks HNers what changes they'd like to see and why, and they respond with crazy analogies that are totally unactionable... not the first time this has happened, won't be the last.

rlpb 6y ago

As far as I'm aware, it's always been opt-in on Ubuntu as it is on Debian.

Multicomp 6y ago

> and fsharp Come again? Is there telemetry in the F# compiler I didn't know about? Or you mean that OOTB VSCode has telemetry, so you won't use it for your F# code, opting instead for a different text editor / IDE?

swiley 6y ago
Nothing says there isn’t. I was shocked when I heard vscode had telemetry even though it was open source and now I’m not sure I want to use any other open source stuff that comes from that company. Especially a compiler.