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Unfortunately, those kinds of interviews also select for some other things that they shouldn't. * Youth. People who have very recently studied these things in

Unfortunately, those kinds of interviews also select for some other things that they shouldn't. * Youth. People who have very recently studied these things in school, and use the same languages as the interviewers, have an advantage. * Free time. People who have families (for example) might have less free time to study "Cracking the Code Interview" and such. * Absence of anxiety. This disadvantages women, minorities, and people with psychological conditions that should be covered by ADA. Also, people whose financial situation is precarious will be more anxious than those who don't need the job, independent of which is actually a better candidate. * Conformity. People who can recognize the flaws in a measurement technique, and who have the strength of character to push back against its application - both good qualities for a candidate - will self select out. There's a lot of overlap among these, of course. There are better ways to measure "general IQ" and "grit" (which are both questionable concepts anyway). I've passed every such interview I've ever taken, but I refuse to administer them (despite the fact that my refusal has carried a quite tangible cost) because whatever benefit they provide is outweighed by their many flaws.

wenc 6y ago
> Resistance to anxiety. This disadvantages women, minorities, and people with psychological conditions that should be covered by ADA. I resemble some of those categories, and I don't know if I would feel comfortable making the leap to correlate them to a some inherent reduced level of resistance to anxiety. That seems like a generalization which I feel that, on an aggregate level, seems unsupportable by data. I think that determination should be on a case-by-case basis, as is currently done at universities.
- enumjorge 6y ago
  Yeah I’ve never heard of women and minorities having less resistance to anxiety as a group. I’m curious where that’s coming from. Certain psychological conditions I could see, but that’s such a broad category that I think that’s also an over generalization.
- notacoward 6y ago
  Allow me to elaborate, then. There's an inherent power dynamic in interviews, which creates stress in the interviewees. That effect is magnified for anyone who is unlike their interviewers, who still tend to be white and male. It's magnified still further when the power dynamic within the interview reflect the one that - very unfortunately - still persists in society at large. Lastly, the funny thing about stress/anxiety is that it tends to be additive. Having experienced high levels recently (including in other interviews) makes one more susceptible to new triggers. Thus, anyone who is the least bit "outside" in any way will feel more anxious. Is any of that even controversial enough to require citation? How many Psychology or Sociology 101 textbooks should I cite? It's easy enough for those who don't feel this kind of anxiety themselves to brush it off, but for those who are less fortunate all those magnifiers can create an anxiety level that's quite debilitating.
  - syndacks 6y ago
    >Is any of that even controversial enough to require citation? I'm sorry, excuse me? Are you saying that non-minority, non-women don't suffer anxiety? Your parent comment certainly seems to suggest that. Which, at a minimum, is flat out wrong. Educate yourself[0]. And then zoom out and ask yourself why it's not only permissible, but often lauded, to so flippantly say what you just said. [0] - https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guidelines.pdf https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guideline...
    - whalabi 6y ago
      > I'm sorry, excuse me? Are you saying that non-minority, non-women don't suffer anxiety? To be fair, OP did say "That effect is magnified for anyone who is unlike their interviewers" But, I do agree some evidence from OP would help their claims. I wouldn't be surprised if minorities experience more anxiety, on average, in situations like an interview, though. I think it's established that imposter syndrome is more frequently encountered for example but it's too late here to go digging for evidence :)
    - notacoward 6y ago
      > Are you saying that non-minority, non-women don't suffer anxiety? No, and I doubt anyone would have read it that way in good faith.
- stevula 6y ago
  I don’t know about “resistance to anxiety”, but it can certainly be anxiety-inducing to be the only member of a given minority in the interviewing room (or entire floor, as is sometimes the case in tech).
spelunker 6y ago
Just curious, what are some examples of better ways to measure general IQ and grit? You said they are questionable concepts, so how do _you_ interview people?
- notacoward 6y ago
  > how do _you_ interview people? I don't, any more. I'm at a company that enforces a very rigid structure that I don't agree with, so I simply opt out. I pay for it every review cycle. Ironically, the rigidity of that structure is explicitly intended to reduce personal bias, which is a laudable goal, and I believe it succeeds. Unfortunately, I think it just replaces personal bias with systemic bias. When I did interview, which was a lot at times when I was in a leadership role at a couple of startups, my favorite interview technique was to let the candidate lead and I'd follow. If I wanted to ask about algorithms, I'd ask about one they'd used in a project they'd worked on. How did it work? What were its strengths and pitfalls? What others were considered? What bugs were found in its implementation, or caused by its use? Besides flipping the control dynamic of the interview, it often led to more interesting conversations. Highly recommend. > what are some examples of better ways to measure general IQ and grit IQ has been under a shadow since _The Bell Curve_ and I'm not keen on letting it back out. ;) If one must measure it, I'd say measure it directly with simple challenges (e.g. memory or pattern completion) or puzzles ... but even those are apparently fraught with cultural baggage and of questionable relevance to a knowledge-heavy domain like programming. As for grit, it's often readily apparent from someone's resume. Were they self-taught, worked through college, or took a free ride? Did they stay with companies and projects through hard times and get promoted "in the field" or were they always the first rat to abandon ship? It usually only takes a few questions to figure out whether someone's a coaster or a fighter. Funnily enough, the people with the most actual evidence of grit are the ones least likely to have spent their time studying specifically for the interview. They were busy actually doing stuff.
Darvon 6y ago
I'd hate working alongside a young anxiety free conformist who doesn't have external commitments.
- dyno_for_days 6y ago
  This is an underrated hilarious comment
ajzinsbwbs 6y ago
What if qualities you might judge in an interview other than “general IQ” and “grit” are even more bias-prone, and using those other qualities is actually worse than measuring “general IQ” and “grit” and applying a corrective factor? In other words, I’d rather work with a disadvantaged person who may appear rough around the edges but made it this far and has the “general IQ” and “grit” to do well on the programming problem, than the preppy white kid who has a lifetime of experience preparing for the task of exuding status and competency when answering behavioral questions or engineering case studies, but lacks the “general IQ” and “grit” to solve the programming problem.

wenc 6y ago

> Resistance to anxiety. This disadvantages women, minorities, and people with psychological conditions that should be covered by ADA. I resemble some of those categories, and I don't know if I would feel comfortable making the leap to correlate them to a some inherent reduced level of resistance to anxiety. That seems like a generalization which I feel that, on an aggregate level, seems unsupportable by data. I think that determination should be on a case-by-case basis, as is currently done at universities.

enumjorge 6y ago
Yeah I’ve never heard of women and minorities having less resistance to anxiety as a group. I’m curious where that’s coming from. Certain psychological conditions I could see, but that’s such a broad category that I think that’s also an over generalization.
notacoward 6y ago
Allow me to elaborate, then. There's an inherent power dynamic in interviews, which creates stress in the interviewees. That effect is magnified for anyone who is unlike their interviewers, who still tend to be white and male. It's magnified still further when the power dynamic within the interview reflect the one that - very unfortunately - still persists in society at large. Lastly, the funny thing about stress/anxiety is that it tends to be additive. Having experienced high levels recently (including in other interviews) makes one more susceptible to new triggers. Thus, anyone who is the least bit "outside" in any way will feel more anxious. Is any of that even controversial enough to require citation? How many Psychology or Sociology 101 textbooks should I cite? It's easy enough for those who don't feel this kind of anxiety themselves to brush it off, but for those who are less fortunate all those magnifiers can create an anxiety level that's quite debilitating.
- syndacks 6y ago
  >Is any of that even controversial enough to require citation? I'm sorry, excuse me? Are you saying that non-minority, non-women don't suffer anxiety? Your parent comment certainly seems to suggest that. Which, at a minimum, is flat out wrong. Educate yourself[0]. And then zoom out and ask yourself why it's not only permissible, but often lauded, to so flippantly say what you just said. [0] - https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guidelines.pdf https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guideline...
  - whalabi 6y ago
    > I'm sorry, excuse me? Are you saying that non-minority, non-women don't suffer anxiety? To be fair, OP did say "That effect is magnified for anyone who is unlike their interviewers" But, I do agree some evidence from OP would help their claims. I wouldn't be surprised if minorities experience more anxiety, on average, in situations like an interview, though. I think it's established that imposter syndrome is more frequently encountered for example but it's too late here to go digging for evidence :)
  - notacoward 6y ago
    > Are you saying that non-minority, non-women don't suffer anxiety? No, and I doubt anyone would have read it that way in good faith.
stevula 6y ago
I don’t know about “resistance to anxiety”, but it can certainly be anxiety-inducing to be the only member of a given minority in the interviewing room (or entire floor, as is sometimes the case in tech).

spelunker 6y ago

Just curious, what are some examples of better ways to measure general IQ and grit? You said they are questionable concepts, so how do _you_ interview people?

notacoward 6y ago
> how do _you_ interview people? I don't, any more. I'm at a company that enforces a very rigid structure that I don't agree with, so I simply opt out. I pay for it every review cycle. Ironically, the rigidity of that structure is explicitly intended to reduce personal bias, which is a laudable goal, and I believe it succeeds. Unfortunately, I think it just replaces personal bias with systemic bias. When I did interview, which was a lot at times when I was in a leadership role at a couple of startups, my favorite interview technique was to let the candidate lead and I'd follow. If I wanted to ask about algorithms, I'd ask about one they'd used in a project they'd worked on. How did it work? What were its strengths and pitfalls? What others were considered? What bugs were found in its implementation, or caused by its use? Besides flipping the control dynamic of the interview, it often led to more interesting conversations. Highly recommend. > what are some examples of better ways to measure general IQ and grit IQ has been under a shadow since _The Bell Curve_ and I'm not keen on letting it back out. ;) If one must measure it, I'd say measure it directly with simple challenges (e.g. memory or pattern completion) or puzzles ... but even those are apparently fraught with cultural baggage and of questionable relevance to a knowledge-heavy domain like programming. As for grit, it's often readily apparent from someone's resume. Were they self-taught, worked through college, or took a free ride? Did they stay with companies and projects through hard times and get promoted "in the field" or were they always the first rat to abandon ship? It usually only takes a few questions to figure out whether someone's a coaster or a fighter. Funnily enough, the people with the most actual evidence of grit are the ones least likely to have spent their time studying specifically for the interview. They were busy actually doing stuff.

Darvon 6y ago

I'd hate working alongside a young anxiety free conformist who doesn't have external commitments.

dyno_for_days 6y ago
This is an underrated hilarious comment

ajzinsbwbs 6y ago

What if qualities you might judge in an interview other than “general IQ” and “grit” are even more bias-prone, and using those other qualities is actually worse than measuring “general IQ” and “grit” and applying a corrective factor? In other words, I’d rather work with a disadvantaged person who may appear rough around the edges but made it this far and has the “general IQ” and “grit” to do well on the programming problem, than the preppy white kid who has a lifetime of experience preparing for the task of exuding status and competency when answering behavioral questions or engineering case studies, but lacks the “general IQ” and “grit” to solve the programming problem.