5 ms·

These people should look at Portugal. One of the highest taxers in Europe and our economy is crap. The middle class is basically paying for the rich and poor a

These people should look at Portugal. One of the highest taxers in Europe and our economy is crap. The middle class is basically paying for the rich and poor and they don't have money to spend on the economy. We can't support our companies because their products are actually more expensive than outside products (companies pay a lot of taxes too). It's more than known by every good economist that overtaxing isn't good for any economy.

secondcoming 6y ago
There was talk in at least the London tech scene two or three years ago about Lisbon becoming some sort of tech hub. (Personally, I'd love to move there but I'd have to learn Portuguese) But some companies that did try Lisbon out seem to have pulled back. Last I heard it a large reason was because the 'work ethic' of the Portuguese left something to be desired compared to London.
- ptmvp 6y ago
  This comment is not only based on anedotical evidence, but demonstrably wrong [0] (compare hours worked between Portugal and the UK - these are significantly higher in Portugal) and perpetuating stereotypes with regards to Southern European countries. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor_hours_in_OECD_countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor...
  - secondcoming 6y ago
    I'm quite sure I did not present it as a fact. It's just the feedback I got from folk who tried it out. YMMV.
nunoonun 6y ago
afaik Portugal is on par with the EU average on income tax and slightly above corporate tax. Of course because of the low average wage it the high bands of taxing start much earlier than the rest of the countries. But lowering taxes does not increase wages, companies will always adapt to pay the least possible and if the wages are lower they will just pay less. And in all the countries the middle class pays for the rich and poor... unfortunately.
zanny 6y ago
Who you tax is more important than how much you tax. If you levy your tax burden entirely on the poorest aspects of society than of course its going to look bad. The US is largely socialism and profits for the corporations and free market absolutism and costs for the working poor.
- nickpp 6y ago
  And still US corporate taxes are among the highest in the world, while the working poor benefit from various tax breaks.
  - 6AA4FD 6y ago
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-corporate/many-big-u-s-corporations-pay-very-little-in-taxes-study-idUSBREA1P04Q20140226 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-corporate/many-bi... Doesn't seem like it to me.
- opo 6y ago
  >...The US is largely socialism and profits for the corporations and free market absolutism and costs for the working poor. These kinds of statements don't really add much to the debate - they sound like political slogans. To add to some light instead of just heat to the discussion, it is better to explain what you are saying. How are you defining poor? What tax rate do you think this group should pay? What tax rate do you think corporations should pay? How does that compare with other countries? etc. (I don't mean to single out this particular posting, as I have seen political slogans used throughout this thread.)
sjy 6y ago
Portugal’s tax take as a percentage of GDP tracks pretty closely to the OECD average. France, Sweden etc have significantly higher rates. https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm
- fidelramos 6y ago
  That is true, but Portuguese citizens make a bigger effort to pay those taxes than French, German, Swedish... Tax take as a % of GDP doesn't tell the whole story.
  - dahauns 6y ago
    Er...I might be misunderstanding something here - but it literally does? Something like tax rates statistics wouldn't tell you whether those taxes are actually paid - but tax revenue statistics do exactly this.
    - fidelramos 6y ago
      I will provide a clarifying example: Imagine a person in Portugal has a 1000€ salary, and the state takes 40%, the person has 600€ to live. A person in Germany gains 3000€, the state takes 60%, the person has 1200€, double the Portuguese. Cost of living in Germany is higher, but not twice that much. And the cost of living already factors in some taxes, such as VAT, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
      - dahauns 6y ago
        Ah, now I understand what you meant with "effort", i.e. that the disposable income after taxes normalized for purchasing power would be lower in Portugal than e.g. in Sweden, right? Hm...that's a good point actually - net PPP-adjusted household displosable income is definitely lower in Portugal: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/ http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/

secondcoming 6y ago

There was talk in at least the London tech scene two or three years ago about Lisbon becoming some sort of tech hub. (Personally, I'd love to move there but I'd have to learn Portuguese) But some companies that did try Lisbon out seem to have pulled back. Last I heard it a large reason was because the 'work ethic' of the Portuguese left something to be desired compared to London.

ptmvp 6y ago
This comment is not only based on anedotical evidence, but demonstrably wrong [0] (compare hours worked between Portugal and the UK - these are significantly higher in Portugal) and perpetuating stereotypes with regards to Southern European countries. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor_hours_in_OECD_countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor...
- secondcoming 6y ago
  I'm quite sure I did not present it as a fact. It's just the feedback I got from folk who tried it out. YMMV.

nunoonun 6y ago

afaik Portugal is on par with the EU average on income tax and slightly above corporate tax. Of course because of the low average wage it the high bands of taxing start much earlier than the rest of the countries. But lowering taxes does not increase wages, companies will always adapt to pay the least possible and if the wages are lower they will just pay less. And in all the countries the middle class pays for the rich and poor... unfortunately.

zanny 6y ago

Who you tax is more important than how much you tax. If you levy your tax burden entirely on the poorest aspects of society than of course its going to look bad. The US is largely socialism and profits for the corporations and free market absolutism and costs for the working poor.

nickpp 6y ago
And still US corporate taxes are among the highest in the world, while the working poor benefit from various tax breaks.
- 6AA4FD 6y ago
  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-corporate/many-big-u-s-corporations-pay-very-little-in-taxes-study-idUSBREA1P04Q20140226 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-corporate/many-bi... Doesn't seem like it to me.
opo 6y ago
>...The US is largely socialism and profits for the corporations and free market absolutism and costs for the working poor. These kinds of statements don't really add much to the debate - they sound like political slogans. To add to some light instead of just heat to the discussion, it is better to explain what you are saying. How are you defining poor? What tax rate do you think this group should pay? What tax rate do you think corporations should pay? How does that compare with other countries? etc. (I don't mean to single out this particular posting, as I have seen political slogans used throughout this thread.)

sjy 6y ago

Portugal’s tax take as a percentage of GDP tracks pretty closely to the OECD average. France, Sweden etc have significantly higher rates. https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm

fidelramos 6y ago
That is true, but Portuguese citizens make a bigger effort to pay those taxes than French, German, Swedish... Tax take as a % of GDP doesn't tell the whole story.
- dahauns 6y ago
  Er...I might be misunderstanding something here - but it literally does? Something like tax rates statistics wouldn't tell you whether those taxes are actually paid - but tax revenue statistics do exactly this.
  - fidelramos 6y ago
    I will provide a clarifying example: Imagine a person in Portugal has a 1000€ salary, and the state takes 40%, the person has 600€ to live. A person in Germany gains 3000€, the state takes 60%, the person has 1200€, double the Portuguese. Cost of living in Germany is higher, but not twice that much. And the cost of living already factors in some taxes, such as VAT, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
    - dahauns 6y ago
      Ah, now I understand what you meant with "effort", i.e. that the disposable income after taxes normalized for purchasing power would be lower in Portugal than e.g. in Sweden, right? Hm...that's a good point actually - net PPP-adjusted household displosable income is definitely lower in Portugal: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/ http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/