10 ms·

Secret Trump order gives CIA more powers to launch cyberattacks

71 points by furcyd 6y ago

notRobot 6y ago
In the near future it's just constantly going to be countries launching cyber-attacks on each other, stealing private citizens' data, taking public utilities down, engaging in disinformation campaigns, etc. And the ones who'll be affected worst by the whole ordeal will be innocent people around the world who aren't very tech-savvy and are just trying to get through the day.
- throwawayway9 6y ago
  Was going to write something. You wrote basically all I had to say. I'm so apathetic at this point :(
- 101404 6y ago
  Just as in other areas where countries use violence against each other's populations, it will be a question of the state defending its citizens. Maybe, some day, there will be some sort of international agreement about what can be done and what must not be done. Like with ABC weapons.
  - wtetzner 6y ago
    > Just as in other areas where countries use violence against each other's populations, it will be a question of the state defending its citizens. Unfortunately the state seems to be more interested in using these same attacks against its own citizens.
  - notRobot 6y ago
    > Just as in other areas where countries use violence against each other's populations, it will be a question of the state defending its citizens. And for this reason, the innocent civilians of third-world/underdeveloped/developing nations will be affected the worst.
  - classified 6y ago
    There has already been such an agreement (The Hague Land Warfare Order, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_...), but "cyber warfare" wasn't a thing then and thus not included.
- classified 6y ago
  In other words, business as usual. All that has changed are the means by which it is conducted.
- goshx 6y ago
  This has been happening for many years already.
- whatsmyusername 6y ago
  Be nice if US Citizens could benefit from it for once instead of just having to suffer the consequences. Cheeto is garbage but he occasionally does what’s necessary, albeit accidentally.
- gonzo41 6y ago
  the cyber domain is like the plains of WW1 right now. Everyone's got a machine gun, but tactics havn't evolved yet. So yeah, a lot of people are going to get mowed down. But there's an opportunity to make personal cyber security easy and marketable so governments have to be more targeted with what they do.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Is the game theory in favor of this? It seems like it would be a lose-lose situation for everyone involved, thus unlikely to happen.
- Lendal 6y ago
  Sure everyone should just be kind to one another and live in total peace and harmony. Unfortunately not everyone sees it that way. You can't force other people to see things your way, and you can't have détente without demonstrated capability.
- odomojuli 6y ago
  The future is now, I mean in 2016 there were conferences about how easy it is to turn off utilities with a USB key on the ground or checking if they run Windows 98 in their control plants. By law, the power network is listed online to combat climate change and pollution. In the sense that information has always dictated war, has the world really changed since WW2 in this regard?
  - stepstop 6y ago
    > By law, the power network is listed online to combat climate change and pollution. Which law is that?
- shostack 6y ago
  It feels like Shadowrun was ahead of its time.
Someone1234 6y ago
George Washington is a national hero, but I feel like arguably his greatest feat hasn't remained popular: Willfully giving up power. Regardless of who happens to be sitting in the Oval, and if they're using their executive authority for "good" or "evil," one could very easily make the argument that congress has given up too much power to unilateral action by the executive (and or too little actionable oversight). Going back to George Washington, the absolute hardest thing anyone can do is give up power. That's why I hope to one day see someone in the WH who is patriotic enough to call for their own political party for help in stripping their own office of unilateral powers. Hand wringing when the "other side" is swinging the executive stick wildly isn't enough. You have to give up power, not just for you, but for who happens comes next. You also have to give up power early in your own term so it impacts you, and you cannot be accused of trying to sabotage. The US shouldn't be a turn-key despot. PS - I don't really expect to see this in my lifetime, but boy would it be a sight to see.
- deeg 6y ago
  > George Washington is a national hero, but I feel like arguably his greatest feat hasn't remained popular: Willfully giving up power. In popular history you're probably right; GW is largely known as being the first president. Historians are aware of his place in history, though, and even some of his contemporaries. Supposedly George III said this when Washington resigned from the army: "If he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world." [0] I'm leery of "American Exceptionalism" but those early leaders did something pretty remarkable: an armed revolution deposed a government and replaced it with a more peaceful one. That is very rare in history. [0] - https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdstatehouse/html/gwresignation.html https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdstatehouse/html/gwresignation...
  - nogabebop23 6y ago
    You can fault the man for many reasons but James K Polk didn't run for a second term because he had a pretty narrow mandate and felt he accomplished it in his first. America's first agile president!
    - 6y ago
stunt 6y ago
Legal bases aside, How any of these attacks are useful though? It just gives them an excuse to retaliate. " - Publishing hacking tools (malware) from APT34, an Iranian government hacking unit, on Telegram. - Doxing Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) intelligence agents on Telegram by revealing their full names, home addresses, phone numbers, and social media profiles. - Dumping details about 15 million payment cards from three Iranian banks linked to Iran's IRGC. - Hacking two contractors that provide cyber-weapons and surveillance solutions for Russia's FSB intelligence agency and sharing the data online via a hacktivist group called Digital Revolution. " https://www.zdnet.com/article/report-cia-behind-apt34-and-fsb-hacks-and-data-dumps/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/report-cia-behind-apt34-and-fs...
- classified 6y ago
  You could have said the same thing about the Iraq war. Obviously there are wildly differing definitions of "useful".
- sdinsn 6y ago
  > How any of these attacks are useful though? It just gives them an excuse to retaliate. You could say that to the other side as well.
peter_retief 6y ago
This is hardly a new "secret" order. It has been going on since I can remember, or is this the new parody? Parody is getting harder by the day.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  This relatively new order made it significantly easier for them to get permission to engage in these attacks, and the order's exact provisions are still a secret.
  - peter_retief 6y ago
    If it was secret how come you know about it?
    - derision 6y ago
      The statement "We are easing restrictions on when and how to engage in cyber attacks" is not secret. The secret part is exactly what is changing
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      The document is still marked as secret, and as I said the exact contents are unknown. We know of what it allows as members/former members of the CIA told the reporters about it.
hirundo 6y ago
> The finding allows the CIA to more easily authorize its own covert cyber operations, rather than requiring the agency to get approval from the White House. What a horrible policy. Not only do we get covert acts of war not authorized by Congress, without a declaration, in defiance of the War Powers Act, but now they don't even need specific executive authorization. Unelected permanent bureaucrats in times of peace can now launch major aggressions against foreign countries without direct approval of anyone accountable to the electorate. Congress devolves power to the presidency, and now the president devolves power not only to unaccountable bureaucrats, but to the most professionally conspiratorial, paranoid, secretive among them.
- Lendal 6y ago
  I don't believe they are conspiratorial or paranoid. The mission of the CIA is information gathering and analysis to gain knowledge, not paranoia. The current president may not listen to facts, but that doesn't mean everyone in government follows his lead. Or even most. I believe they are good people overall, who take their mission to protect democracy seriously. I know this isn't a popular opinion here, but I've been following this for 4 years now and I don't believe the CIA or the FBI can be described as "unaccountable bureaucrats". Furthermore I believe it is dangerous spreading such beliefs without good evidence to the contrary about people who are out there every day trying to do heroic things in our defense.
- sdinsn 6y ago
  If hacking is an act of war, we should have nuked Iran years ago...
broooder 6y ago
Seems not so secret.

71 points by furcyd 6y ago

In the near future it's just constantly going to be countries launching cyber-attacks on each other, stealing private citizens' data, taking public utilities down, engaging in disinformation campaigns, etc. And the ones who'll be affected worst by the whole ordeal will be innocent people around the world who aren't very tech-savvy and are just trying to get through the day.

throwawayway9 6y ago
Was going to write something. You wrote basically all I had to say. I'm so apathetic at this point :(
101404 6y ago
Just as in other areas where countries use violence against each other's populations, it will be a question of the state defending its citizens. Maybe, some day, there will be some sort of international agreement about what can be done and what must not be done. Like with ABC weapons.
- wtetzner 6y ago
  > Just as in other areas where countries use violence against each other's populations, it will be a question of the state defending its citizens. Unfortunately the state seems to be more interested in using these same attacks against its own citizens.
- notRobot 6y ago
  > Just as in other areas where countries use violence against each other's populations, it will be a question of the state defending its citizens. And for this reason, the innocent civilians of third-world/underdeveloped/developing nations will be affected the worst.
- classified 6y ago
  There has already been such an agreement (The Hague Land Warfare Order, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_...), but "cyber warfare" wasn't a thing then and thus not included.
classified 6y ago
In other words, business as usual. All that has changed are the means by which it is conducted.
goshx 6y ago
This has been happening for many years already.
whatsmyusername 6y ago
Be nice if US Citizens could benefit from it for once instead of just having to suffer the consequences. Cheeto is garbage but he occasionally does what’s necessary, albeit accidentally.
gonzo41 6y ago
the cyber domain is like the plains of WW1 right now. Everyone's got a machine gun, but tactics havn't evolved yet. So yeah, a lot of people are going to get mowed down. But there's an opportunity to make personal cyber security easy and marketable so governments have to be more targeted with what they do.
TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
Is the game theory in favor of this? It seems like it would be a lose-lose situation for everyone involved, thus unlikely to happen.
Lendal 6y ago
Sure everyone should just be kind to one another and live in total peace and harmony. Unfortunately not everyone sees it that way. You can't force other people to see things your way, and you can't have détente without demonstrated capability.
odomojuli 6y ago
The future is now, I mean in 2016 there were conferences about how easy it is to turn off utilities with a USB key on the ground or checking if they run Windows 98 in their control plants. By law, the power network is listed online to combat climate change and pollution. In the sense that information has always dictated war, has the world really changed since WW2 in this regard?
- stepstop 6y ago
  > By law, the power network is listed online to combat climate change and pollution. Which law is that?
shostack 6y ago
It feels like Shadowrun was ahead of its time.

Someone1234 6y ago

George Washington is a national hero, but I feel like arguably his greatest feat hasn't remained popular: Willfully giving up power. Regardless of who happens to be sitting in the Oval, and if they're using their executive authority for "good" or "evil," one could very easily make the argument that congress has given up too much power to unilateral action by the executive (and or too little actionable oversight). Going back to George Washington, the absolute hardest thing anyone can do is give up power. That's why I hope to one day see someone in the WH who is patriotic enough to call for their own political party for help in stripping their own office of unilateral powers. Hand wringing when the "other side" is swinging the executive stick wildly isn't enough. You have to give up power, not just for you, but for who happens comes next. You also have to give up power early in your own term so it impacts you, and you cannot be accused of trying to sabotage. The US shouldn't be a turn-key despot. PS - I don't really expect to see this in my lifetime, but boy would it be a sight to see.

deeg 6y ago
> George Washington is a national hero, but I feel like arguably his greatest feat hasn't remained popular: Willfully giving up power. In popular history you're probably right; GW is largely known as being the first president. Historians are aware of his place in history, though, and even some of his contemporaries. Supposedly George III said this when Washington resigned from the army: "If he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world." [0] I'm leery of "American Exceptionalism" but those early leaders did something pretty remarkable: an armed revolution deposed a government and replaced it with a more peaceful one. That is very rare in history. [0] - https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdstatehouse/html/gwresignation.html https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdstatehouse/html/gwresignation...
- nogabebop23 6y ago
  You can fault the man for many reasons but James K Polk didn't run for a second term because he had a pretty narrow mandate and felt he accomplished it in his first. America's first agile president!
  - 6y ago

stunt 6y ago

Legal bases aside, How any of these attacks are useful though? It just gives them an excuse to retaliate. " - Publishing hacking tools (malware) from APT34, an Iranian government hacking unit, on Telegram. - Doxing Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) intelligence agents on Telegram by revealing their full names, home addresses, phone numbers, and social media profiles. - Dumping details about 15 million payment cards from three Iranian banks linked to Iran's IRGC. - Hacking two contractors that provide cyber-weapons and surveillance solutions for Russia's FSB intelligence agency and sharing the data online via a hacktivist group called Digital Revolution. " https://www.zdnet.com/article/report-cia-behind-apt34-and-fsb-hacks-and-data-dumps/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/report-cia-behind-apt34-and-fs...

classified 6y ago
You could have said the same thing about the Iraq war. Obviously there are wildly differing definitions of "useful".
sdinsn 6y ago
> How any of these attacks are useful though? It just gives them an excuse to retaliate. You could say that to the other side as well.

peter_retief 6y ago

This is hardly a new "secret" order. It has been going on since I can remember, or is this the new parody? Parody is getting harder by the day.

boomboomsubban 6y ago
This relatively new order made it significantly easier for them to get permission to engage in these attacks, and the order's exact provisions are still a secret.
- peter_retief 6y ago
  If it was secret how come you know about it?
  - derision 6y ago
    The statement "We are easing restrictions on when and how to engage in cyber attacks" is not secret. The secret part is exactly what is changing
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    The document is still marked as secret, and as I said the exact contents are unknown. We know of what it allows as members/former members of the CIA told the reporters about it.

hirundo 6y ago

> The finding allows the CIA to more easily authorize its own covert cyber operations, rather than requiring the agency to get approval from the White House. What a horrible policy. Not only do we get covert acts of war not authorized by Congress, without a declaration, in defiance of the War Powers Act, but now they don't even need specific executive authorization. Unelected permanent bureaucrats in times of peace can now launch major aggressions against foreign countries without direct approval of anyone accountable to the electorate. Congress devolves power to the presidency, and now the president devolves power not only to unaccountable bureaucrats, but to the most professionally conspiratorial, paranoid, secretive among them.

Lendal 6y ago
I don't believe they are conspiratorial or paranoid. The mission of the CIA is information gathering and analysis to gain knowledge, not paranoia. The current president may not listen to facts, but that doesn't mean everyone in government follows his lead. Or even most. I believe they are good people overall, who take their mission to protect democracy seriously. I know this isn't a popular opinion here, but I've been following this for 4 years now and I don't believe the CIA or the FBI can be described as "unaccountable bureaucrats". Furthermore I believe it is dangerous spreading such beliefs without good evidence to the contrary about people who are out there every day trying to do heroic things in our defense.
sdinsn 6y ago
If hacking is an act of war, we should have nuked Iran years ago...

broooder 6y ago

Seems not so secret.