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Apparent absence of covid transmission at hair salon with face covering policy
- FiReaNG3L 6y agoWhere the control group of no one wearing masks had an infection rate of...?
- snorrah 6y agoThat sounds like an unethical control test and would therefore not be considered.
- LudwigNagasena 6y agoThat’s basically why all studies on whether masks are useful (this is not a first epidemic, not even a first coronavirus epidemic) are inconclusive.
- irq11 6y agoNot really. Randomized controlled trials have been done. The experiment isn’t unethical - it’s just that it hasn’t been done often because all of the other, less-complicated experiments, also show very little effect.
- LudwigNagasena 6y ago>Randomized controlled trials have been done. Do you have any examples?
- Symmetry 6y agoAnd would probably require a BSL 3 facility anyways and I don't think you could find one set up for hairdressing. The shortage of BSL 3 facilities that can do science on SARS-2 is one of the things really slowing down our understanding of many aspects of this virus.
- jussij 6y agoI don't think the CDC is looking at this as some sort of controlled test requiring scientific vigor with peer reviewed results. Instead I think the CDC is trying to understand why US COVID-19 cases are growing at 70 thousand cases a day and trying to find ways to slow that growth. Because without some sensible control measures that daily number is going to continue to grow and the final number will be end up being much larger than it is today.
- meddlepal 6y agoYou can’t control something that requires people to cooperate if people refuse to cooperate.
- jussij 6y agoI don't doubt the problem is difficult and it has only been made more difficult by the fact what is a public health issue has somehow morphed into a party political issue. But I'm not sure just giving and not trying to do anything is the answer? That approach will only end badly.
- Spooky23 6y agoThe state can compel cooperation. Non-compliance == fines. Repeated non-compliance == jail or forced quarantine. Hair salons that don't comply == revocation of license.
- kube-system 6y agoI am not sure the US actually can, given the current legal and political landscape. Masks are "mandatory" where I'm at, and I walked into a multi-billion dollar business the other day with a sign that literally said "if you are not wearing a mask we will respectfully assume it is due to a medical condition". "Mandatory" in the US effectively means "strongly suggested". There's literally zero effective way to enforce it.
- Spooky23 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Symmetry 6y agoIt can be evidence without being conclusive evidence. The virus may have a moderately high R0 but a large majority of the spread is driven by a small minority of spreaders. Most people who have it don't end up infecting anybody else even if they don't take sensible precautions. Now, dressing the hair of 100 people is a lot worse than a normal person's not taking precautions but it might be that they just weren't shedding enough virus to infect anyone in the length of a normal appointment while only talking at a normal volume. Again, this isn't convulsive evidence but it is evidence and generally all the evidence looks to be stacking up on the pro-mask side.
- ceejayoz 6y ago> Where the control group of no one wearing masks had an infection rate of...? Florida?
- AlphaWeaver 6y agoThis article had an incredibly long title, so I had to take some liberties in shortening it. Open to suggestions for a more accurate title if anyone has one.
- foota 6y agoThe site is comical on mobile, you have to scroll past the styled edge of the page several screens to read the whole title lol.
- headmelted 6y agoTitle is good as it is. It get's the point across without mis-representing the article.
- OldPenguin 6y agoAmong 139 client exposed to the two infected stylists only 67 volunteered for testing. A) What if they were asymptomatic carriers? B) What about false-negatives? PCR testing work only after symptoms starts developing? C) Isn't this a rather small "sample" space to establish Universal Face Covering Policy? In this regard it'd be nice to have a countrywide comparison of infections ie. countries that required masking vs.that didn't.
- snorrah 6y agoAs I understand it, asymptomatic carriers can still be tested and found positive just fine. It’s not the symptoms developing that lets you get a positive result, it’s the virus being found in the samples.
- Symmetry 6y agoHonestly viral load peaks most of a day before symptoms start so the people who show up best in a PCR test are going to be asymptomatic.
- Tepix 6y agoPCR tests work before symptoms develop.
- zwirbl 6y agofalse negatives are more likely than false positives, which is one of the reasons people get tested multiple times if they have been exposed like the people mentioned in the article
- CubsFan1060 6y agoI think this is more of an observation than a strict study. Similar to this (preprint, not peer reviewed) https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.22.20137745v3 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.22.20137745v... However, the other argument is would be that a universal face covering policy has essentially zero negative other than "it's annoying". (Except for a very small percentage of people who actually have a real medical reason). So if we find out later that masks have no effect, we didn't exactly lose much.
- Tepix 6y agoFrom the article: > Overall, 67 (48.2%) clients volunteered to be tested, and 72 (51.8%) refused Why would anyone refuse a Sars-CoV-2 test after being exposed like that?
- zwirbl 6y agobecause you are only covid-positive if you test positive? /s
- pacamara619 6y agoThis, but unironically. I know people who were told by their bosses they'd get sacked if they tested positive on the virus. Obviously highly illegal but the only restrictions my country has on layoffs is that you have to give 3 months notice and if you lay off more than 20 people at once you need approval of the ministry of work.
- notahacker 6y agoSadly, I suspect scepticism about Covid and conspiracy mongering about the medical establishment was behind at least some of the refusals. Not to mention need to get back to work
- chvid 6y agoIs it a political thing?
- bagacrap 6y ago...or even if you don't, but have a cough
- sombremesa 6y agoThe test is very invasive and uncomfortable. I can see why someone with no symptoms, especially if they're not at risk of transferring it to others, would refuse it.
- oakesm9 6y ago
- chrisweekly 6y agoThe salient point is that the __stylists__ wore masks. YOUR MASK PROTECTS OTHERS. OTHERS' MASKS PROTECT YOU. -- [EDIT]: As an active HN user since 2011, I posted the (factual, relevant) comment above in good faith, and it garnered some upvotes. But then it got flagged. I don't care that much about my karma score, but really want to understand. @Dang / Admins, is it because I used caps for emphasis? Thanks in advance.
- Tepix 6y agoThere's a report of 27 clients being infected at a nail salon: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/kingston-ontatio-salon-covid19-outbreak-1.5631049 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/kingston-ontatio-salon... "Inspectors found that some customers at Binh's were not wearing masks, the space was not set up to properly distance and best hygiene practices were not being followed."
- raducu 6y agoWouldn't it be more important that the staff wear masks? Does your article touch on that? If staff WAS wearing masks and clients still got infected, that would contradict the original article, otherwise it is in line with the current narrative that masks don't offer very much protection unless worn by infected people. Sure, clients could infect other clients.
- Markoff 6y agoI'd like to see someone making nails from 2m distance.
- disabled 6y agoEven if it is true, it is nothing to get excited over. It is still a risky activity, almost anywhere in the US, given the infection rates. I am female, so I just put a cover/wrap over my hair, in addition to wearing a mask, if I ever need to leave the house. (I have a beautiful natural strawberry blonde hair color—-but my hair has not been cut in ages!) It also keeps micro droplets (or aerosolated germs) from getting in my hair and infecting me, including when showering. I also wear long sleeved clothing too, even in the heat. Also, I don’t wear jewelry anymore and this helps me get cleaner. I often wear gloves, but not always. Sometimes it can be less safe. When I arrive home, I slip off my shoes and I use a plastic bag to open the back door. (The shades are drawn in my house prior to leaving/entering the house) As soon as I get in the house, I strip completely, and throw my clothes in a garbage bag. I leave my phone on the counter, which I thoroughly clean later. I then wash my hands/arms, scrubbing away with a ton of soap. I then put on my robe/slippers and go to the shower, putting my robe and (washable!) slippers in a trash bag. Then I get in the shower and scrub away. I then get dressed in another room and put on my house slippers. I then, using gloves and by cleaning knobs frequently and repeatedly, almost algorithmically, deal with the garbage bags and do laundry. Then I wash my phone with soap and water several times, using multiple pairs of gloves. I later wash the floors where I dumped off my clothes.
- abduhl 6y agoThis routine is insane.
- CydeWeys 6y agoYou'll get 99+% of the possible wins in reducing your chance of being infected simply by avoiding being indoors with others as much as possible, wearing masks when you are unable to do so (e.g. when grocery shopping), and by staying away from large crowds outdoors except when wearing masks. So agreed, this routine is excessive. Instead of going to all of this hassle, just source N99 masks and wear them when in unavoidable close proximity to other people. Boom, you're practically guaranteed not to get it.
- 6y ago
- nicoburns 6y agoI would not be at all surprised if mask use turns out to be a lot more significant a factor than western governments seem to be assuming. It seems obvious that pretty much any kind of face (mouth/nose) covering is going to be significantly better than nothing at preventing the spread of disease that spreads through droplets. Of course, we should do formal studies. But in the absence of data, masks being effective seems like a sensible default position to take.
- pintxo 6y agoEspecially considering it being one of the cheapest (financially, legally, impact on freedom) measures we have at our disposal.
- toto444 6y agoThe cost / benefit analysis is so much in favor of mask wearing that I don't understand why they are not made mandatory. Maybe some HN reader knows about some cost that I am not aware of (ie a few of pounds and a small inconvenience).
- brianwawok 6y agoI literally just watched a youtube video that sums up the American view on masks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q3PSISAZL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q3PSISAZL8 I just.. don't get it man.
- umanwizard 6y agoThat video does not “sum up the American view on masks”. It might at most sum up one American view among many. Where I live (which is part of the US), I’d say 100% of people wear masks inside of businesses (other than dodgy corner stores selling illegal cigarettes), and about 90% on the street.
- brianwawok 6y ago
- raducu 6y agoMaybe masks make you shut up and with less talk there is less likelyhood you spread the virus? We know super spreaders are the shouting-singing-outgoing types.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- markkat 6y agoIs it any wonder? This same experiment is being run every day at hospitals and clinics across the country. Face masks diminish the risk dramatically.
- zgiber 6y agoMade me think what else besides masks.. e.g. does operating hairdryers affect virus survival on suspended airborne particles? Or the chemicals they use? (Hair spray etc..) I want to believe that masks are that effective.
- Markoff 6y agoneed comparison against infected stylist without mask, otherwise the results are meaningless not really proving anything
- jamespetercook 6y agoDoes anyone have a good solution to stopping ones glasses from steaming up while wearing a mask? I enjoy being able to see when I’m walking in public