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It sounds like you're trying which is encouraging. I'll give you a few tips that I hope help. > I adapted the traditional whiteboarding exercise Lots of engin

It sounds like you're trying which is encouraging. I'll give you a few tips that I hope help. > I adapted the traditional whiteboarding exercise Lots of engineer types freeze when they have to make a presentation. I remember a meeting early in my career with literally three people in a conference room and I almost had a panic attack. No white board. People I already knew. All I had to to do is explain my ideas to three people. I did improve. I've given many public talks sometimes to hundreds of people and today I like public speaking. But I'll never forget where I started and that the person I'm interviewing might be very nervous. Putting them up on a whiteboard and into presentation mode only amplifies that nervousness. Just talk to people. Get them into that flow that comes from talking about something familiar that they are excited about. For most people a whiteboard test is not exciting. But if you give me a paid take home coding exercise, that's exciting. I like code, and I like to get paid for it. So if you really think you need a test, consider a very high signal test that is the exact work they will be doing. > I make sure to ask for feedback on the exercise and I've gotten all positive feedback from candidates. In an unequal relationship like that you are going to get a lot of false positives. If I really needed a job my response would be "loved the exercise, looking forward to talking to you more and discussing next steps if I'm the right candidate".

GeneralMayhem 6y ago
>Lots of engineer types freeze when they have to make a presentation. I remember a meeting early in my career with literally three people in a conference room and I almost had a panic attack. That's definitely an unfortunate experience, but isn't giving presentations to explain your ideas - sometimes to people you don't really know - actually a significant part of the job? I'm an IC, and I present designs and project plans for feedback to groups of up to a couple dozen people, or to VPs, on a pretty regular basis. If I couldn't do that competently I would be failing at my job, because that kind of communication is just as important as actually writing the code. If I were conducting an interview and discovered that "public" speaking on the order of a few people in a conference room was extremely difficult for you, I'd probably consider that an important red flag.
- tchaffee 6y ago
  What is an IC? > isn't giving presentations to explain your ideas - sometimes to people you don't really know - actually a significant part of the job? For many engineering positions it is not. There are loads of shops where the developers, even senior developers, mostly just write code. I have hired many of them and put them to work successfully building stuff while I deal with the meetings. > If I were conducting an interview and discovered that "public" speaking on the order of a few people in a conference room was extremely difficult for you And yet I worked very successfully as a junior developer for a couple of years before I ever had to attend a meeting like that. Among the other 100 devs in the shop, I was considered a top talent at coding. That's not to brag but to point out that I was adding lots of value to the company without having to attend meetings with people from other departments. My manager did that. My manager did not code, although he could if he wanted to. In fact at that company they created a separate path for highly talented engineers who wanted to continue coding but wanted to avoid management and meetings. That was a couple of decades ago and less common, but I think it's a lot more common now. And the fact that I can now publicly speak in front of hundreds of people should hopefully encourage you that it's something people can learn if they want to. Some people don't want to. There are roles for them too.
  - unclewalter 6y ago
    > What is an IC? Believe op is using it as "individual contributor"
    - arethuza 6y ago
      Isn't there just a bit of condescension in that title? It always sounds to me like something invented by a manager to be dismissive of someone who doesn't manage anyone.
      - VRay 6y ago
        I think you're projecting I've never heard of someone not liking the term "Individual Contributor" before
LandR 6y ago
> Lots of engineer types freeze when they have to make a presentation. I've seen one place that wanted developers to do a full presentation with slides and all to a group of people. The topic of the presentation was completely up to you, didn't even have to be a technical subject. You could do a presentation on baking if you wanted. Was doing presentations a part of the job of the developer? No. They wouldn't have to do presentations in their day job... I didn't go for the job and have never understood what they were looking for.

GeneralMayhem 6y ago

>Lots of engineer types freeze when they have to make a presentation. I remember a meeting early in my career with literally three people in a conference room and I almost had a panic attack. That's definitely an unfortunate experience, but isn't giving presentations to explain your ideas - sometimes to people you don't really know - actually a significant part of the job? I'm an IC, and I present designs and project plans for feedback to groups of up to a couple dozen people, or to VPs, on a pretty regular basis. If I couldn't do that competently I would be failing at my job, because that kind of communication is just as important as actually writing the code. If I were conducting an interview and discovered that "public" speaking on the order of a few people in a conference room was extremely difficult for you, I'd probably consider that an important red flag.

tchaffee 6y ago
What is an IC? > isn't giving presentations to explain your ideas - sometimes to people you don't really know - actually a significant part of the job? For many engineering positions it is not. There are loads of shops where the developers, even senior developers, mostly just write code. I have hired many of them and put them to work successfully building stuff while I deal with the meetings. > If I were conducting an interview and discovered that "public" speaking on the order of a few people in a conference room was extremely difficult for you And yet I worked very successfully as a junior developer for a couple of years before I ever had to attend a meeting like that. Among the other 100 devs in the shop, I was considered a top talent at coding. That's not to brag but to point out that I was adding lots of value to the company without having to attend meetings with people from other departments. My manager did that. My manager did not code, although he could if he wanted to. In fact at that company they created a separate path for highly talented engineers who wanted to continue coding but wanted to avoid management and meetings. That was a couple of decades ago and less common, but I think it's a lot more common now. And the fact that I can now publicly speak in front of hundreds of people should hopefully encourage you that it's something people can learn if they want to. Some people don't want to. There are roles for them too.
- unclewalter 6y ago
  > What is an IC? Believe op is using it as "individual contributor"
  - arethuza 6y ago
    Isn't there just a bit of condescension in that title? It always sounds to me like something invented by a manager to be dismissive of someone who doesn't manage anyone.
    - VRay 6y ago
      I think you're projecting I've never heard of someone not liking the term "Individual Contributor" before

LandR 6y ago

> Lots of engineer types freeze when they have to make a presentation. I've seen one place that wanted developers to do a full presentation with slides and all to a group of people. The topic of the presentation was completely up to you, didn't even have to be a technical subject. You could do a presentation on baking if you wanted. Was doing presentations a part of the job of the developer? No. They wouldn't have to do presentations in their day job... I didn't go for the job and have never understood what they were looking for.