4 ms·

If this is all you've taken from the above than we've read 2 very different comments. The point about lonely old people is only 1 (and i would say not the most

by ido 6y ago

If this is all you've taken from the above than we've read 2 very different comments. The point about lonely old people is only 1 (and i would say not the most significant) point in the argument. I have a wife and 2 (small) children. There is nobody in the world I love more than my family - it used to be only my wife previously and now grew from 1 person to 3. This has such a profound effect on my happiness now (in my 30s) that even if I die suddenly at age 55 (long before becoming a lonely old man) it would still have been worth it. Yes you should also have friends & if they are of various ages that's even better. You dont need tech to do that either, although it is probably difficult if you live somewhere far from other people (and some developments like fenced off suburbs with no city centers make that harder still). But that is independent of the argument if you should or should not also have kids. You can have kids and friends!

vladvasiliu 6y ago
I think you should definitely have friends, with or without kids. But from I see around me, I get the impression that having friends is difficult. Even more so when people have to juggle kids and a career. There's a certain isolation that seems to set in. I'm sure a lot of people don't have the kids with the purpose of not being alone in old age. But I also get that there's some kind of "soft expectation", for lack of a better term, that your "family" will kind of stick around, especially when you're alone because raising said family more or less led to a falling out with old friends. There's also the factor that when people get old, their own friends may have gotten old and died. Where I live I don't see many "intergenerational friendships". Granted, I'm not a very social person so I don't really seek the society of others, but from what I see around me people tend to hang out with people of roughly the same age. There also seem to be a lot of loose friendships, in that people would get together more or less often, have a good time &c, but those are not relationships one would be able to depend on in case of a problem. I think your point about fenced-off suburbs is quite important though. I figure that once people get older, it's much easier for them to try to hang out with other people if they all live more or less close-by. Such as joining some kind of club. Even if it won't become some very close friendship, at least they're less likely to feel as lonely as people in the suburbs.
- watwut 6y ago
  > because raising said family more or less led to a falling out with old friends ... Where I live I don't see many "intergenerational friendships". I think that both of these are massively consequence of our own culture, not something that must be. It is combination of long hours at work, the super high expectations on child raising that for many people excludes socialization with kids present and animosity of childless toward kids present near "adult places". And vice versa. It is also a result of socialization being seen as slacking and not doing useful things. It is also result of sort stigmatising the behavior that leads to keeping long term friendships (at least I had to figure out this is issue for me).
  - ido 6y ago
    I don't know which culture is this "our culture" you refer to but at least for me (in Germany) I've actually had more friends since having kids (parents of kids +/- similarly aged to mine) even tho I've also lost touch with some childless friends as well. On the balance I'm sure I'm more social now (corona notwithstanding) than I was 5 years ago.
    - monodeldiablo 6y ago
      American here, and I'm pretty sure the poster you're replying to is also a product of American society. Once I moved to Europe, the shift in social norms was shocking. Now it's difficult for me to go back to the US because everybody there defines themselves by their work and social spaces are so openly hostile to children.
- greggman3 6y ago
  In Japan (and probably several other cultures), it's common to list your birth order in your dating profile. This is because if you're the first born you're expected to take care of the parents and many people choose to explicitly NOT date such people, especially women, since they'll likely be tasked with taking care of the 1st born son's parents.
- ido 6y ago

by ido 6y ago

vladvasiliu 6y ago

I think you should definitely have friends, with or without kids. But from I see around me, I get the impression that having friends is difficult. Even more so when people have to juggle kids and a career. There's a certain isolation that seems to set in. I'm sure a lot of people don't have the kids with the purpose of not being alone in old age. But I also get that there's some kind of "soft expectation", for lack of a better term, that your "family" will kind of stick around, especially when you're alone because raising said family more or less led to a falling out with old friends. There's also the factor that when people get old, their own friends may have gotten old and died. Where I live I don't see many "intergenerational friendships". Granted, I'm not a very social person so I don't really seek the society of others, but from what I see around me people tend to hang out with people of roughly the same age. There also seem to be a lot of loose friendships, in that people would get together more or less often, have a good time &c, but those are not relationships one would be able to depend on in case of a problem. I think your point about fenced-off suburbs is quite important though. I figure that once people get older, it's much easier for them to try to hang out with other people if they all live more or less close-by. Such as joining some kind of club. Even if it won't become some very close friendship, at least they're less likely to feel as lonely as people in the suburbs.

watwut 6y ago
> because raising said family more or less led to a falling out with old friends ... Where I live I don't see many "intergenerational friendships". I think that both of these are massively consequence of our own culture, not something that must be. It is combination of long hours at work, the super high expectations on child raising that for many people excludes socialization with kids present and animosity of childless toward kids present near "adult places". And vice versa. It is also a result of socialization being seen as slacking and not doing useful things. It is also result of sort stigmatising the behavior that leads to keeping long term friendships (at least I had to figure out this is issue for me).
- ido 6y ago
  I don't know which culture is this "our culture" you refer to but at least for me (in Germany) I've actually had more friends since having kids (parents of kids +/- similarly aged to mine) even tho I've also lost touch with some childless friends as well. On the balance I'm sure I'm more social now (corona notwithstanding) than I was 5 years ago.
  - monodeldiablo 6y ago
    American here, and I'm pretty sure the poster you're replying to is also a product of American society. Once I moved to Europe, the shift in social norms was shocking. Now it's difficult for me to go back to the US because everybody there defines themselves by their work and social spaces are so openly hostile to children.
greggman3 6y ago
In Japan (and probably several other cultures), it's common to list your birth order in your dating profile. This is because if you're the first born you're expected to take care of the parents and many people choose to explicitly NOT date such people, especially women, since they'll likely be tasked with taking care of the 1st born son's parents.
ido 6y ago