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TikTok seemed to run off of Alibaba Cloud (from what I read which may be wrong) so it's an interesting move to buy Cloud Services from Google. I probably read t

TikTok seemed to run off of Alibaba Cloud (from what I read which may be wrong) so it's an interesting move to buy Cloud Services from Google. I probably read this as a way of strengthening the case that they're an "American" software company since they run on the same infrastructure as any SV startup.

throwawaybab323 6y ago
Just curious, what is Alibaba Cloud is it a service similar to AWS?
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
According to Chinese law, the government can quietly demand any information they want on anyone. A warrant in China? Hah. All they have to do is say "Give us the data stored on GCP host" and TikTok is legally obligated to comply. To be fair, it's not much different than in the United States unless the data belongs to a US citizen, which is why many companies are attempting to domicile cloud data in their own country.
- noetokyo 6y ago
  Wouldn't it look suspicious if they did that though? I'm curious to know. If they ever were audited wouldn't that stand out?
  - kupopuffs 6y ago
    I dont see why. Accessing data on a service you are renting? Seems like normal everyday kinda stuff
    - noetokyo 6y ago
      I was thinking about the volume of the data and the type. But yeah they probably could easily obfuscate it. Wouldn't it just be cheaper to buy it at that rate though? Am I missing something?
      - aussieguy1234 6y ago
        If its just the IP address and basic info of some dissident, that wouldn't be alot of traffic
- three_seagrass 6y ago
  The Chinese National Intelligence Law applies to any and every company operating in China right now, including Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM, etc., not just TikTok. Ironically enough, Google is one of the few major tech companies that can't be compelled to hand over information to China.
  - russli1993 6y ago
    The subsidiaries of these companies are subject to the intelligence law and whatever data these subsidiaries owns. If apple keeps US data away from the apple subsidiary in China then Apple is physically impossible to hand the data to Chinese government
    - three_seagrass 6y ago
      Apple keeps data in China. [1] They specifically made the move because of China's National Intelligence Law. [2] >To comply with the law, for instance, Apple announced that it would transfer the operation of iCloud in Mainland China to a government-sponsored data company named Guizhou-Cloud Big Data. [1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law#Ef...
      - jchb 6y ago
        Yes, but they only store data in China for Chinese customers (as per the registered region of the Apple ID). [1] [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351
        three_seagrass 6y ago
        Right, which is still Apple complying with the Chinese National Intelligence Law and giving up private customer data to the Chinese government.
- russli1993 6y ago
  Tiktok' parent is bytedance is incorporated in Cayman islands. It has a US and a Chinese subsidiary. Chinese subsidiary runs douyin is subjected to the intelligence law. The US subsidiary runs tiktok and is managed by US employees and is not subject to the same law. The intelligence law would be problematic if bytedance is incorporated in China but it's not. The data and the code for tiktok is stored in the US and Chinese subsidiary cannot view that data.
  - humaniania 6y ago
    Has there been any 3rd party audit that shows your claims to be true?
  - gruez 6y ago
    >The intelligence law would be problematic if bytedance is incorporated in China but it's not. The data and the code for tiktok is stored in the US and Chinese subsidiary cannot view that data. But the issue is that bytedance is still physically located in China, and is probably subject to CCP pressure. eg. "it'd be a real shame if your beijing offices were shut down because of fire code violations". Or they go straight to the CEO and demand that they backdoor their US servers or he gets sent to the gulag. According to wikipedia, the CEO of TikTok reports directly to the CEO of Zhang Yiming, so there isn't really separation in terms of control.
  - fiblye 6y ago
    >The US subsidiary runs tiktok and is managed by US employees and is not subject to the same law. Which leaves us with the question as to whether or not the government cares what the law says or whether they would back down if employees in China said they can't easily hand over foreign data.
    - justicezyx 6y ago
      Eventually tiktok will run anything that is remotely sensitive inside us soil. That has already began.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bjourne 6y ago
  > According to Chinese law, the government can quietly demand any information they want on anyone. A warrant in China? Hah. Which Chinese law?
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-national-intelligence-law/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-na...
lacker 6y ago
This deal was signed in May 2019, before the questions about Chinese control over TikTok had really come to the forefront. There's a decent chance that it's simply about Google giving TikTok a better deal, or other infrastructural features like global availability.
- justicezyx 6y ago
  Anyone who believed US would allow a Chinese controlled internet company to reach mainstream is plainly self deceiving. US and China are both super power. Don’t be naive that they would be doing things differently.
  - tempestn 6y ago
    Pretty sure in 2019 if [Chinese company] offered to pay Google a bunch of money for cloud services, Google would take it. Unlike in China, large US corporations don't act as an extension of the government, so China being a rival superpower to the US wouldn't be terribly relevant. Not that the US in general avoids trading with China either.
    - justicezyx 6y ago
      What are you talking about? I am saying TikTok has to base its engineering entirely in US soil, given its prospect to become main stream.
      - throwaway1997 6y ago
        Tiktok is just a rebranded version of the app called 抖音 (Douyin). It's made in China
        poiuytrewqa 6y ago
        True, but while tiktok is international and serve the content from servers not located in China. The Chinese version is different both in terms of content (you won't find the same "influencer") and in term of setup (servers in China with further settings to comply to stricter Chinese regulations)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
FooBarWidget 6y ago
Regardless of whether accusations of spying are true, I think these moves (including pulling out of Hong Kong) will do nothing. The politicians and a large part of the public have already decided Tiktok is guilty, with no way to prove innocence. A ban is just a matter of time.
xster 6y ago
Unlike Zoom which is an American company (and everyone feels like they need to pull an Andrew Yang and try extra hard to prove their American-ness for some reason), unless I'm mistaken I don't think TikTok really made any effort to "appear" "American". ByteDance might have downplayed their Chinese-ness and worked more than typical Chinese companies to cater to American audiences (like hiring Disney CEO in the same way Huawei has an America CSO), but I don't think they're making the case that they're an "American" company.
- levosmetalo 6y ago
  Why would it matter if it's an American or Chinese company? It's a sad world where we need to decide about company, product, person, idea, book or whatever based on their perceived country, colour, race, ideology, ...
  - Jonnax 6y ago
    Well I guess at the minimum. China blocks American services in their country like Facebook and Twitter. For a foreign company to operate in China it needs to be majority Chinese owned. It can be argued that if foreign companies are not allowed to profit in China, then they shouldn't be able to do so abroad. Of course being the manufacturing capital of the world, they have a lot of leverage.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    It matters whether the company executives live in a democracy with rule of law or an authoritarian one-party state. I have no qualms doing business with American, Canadian, Indian, Japanese, or European (minus Hungary) companies... I would be very cautious doing business with Chinese, Russian, or Saudi firms.
- morley 6y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your reference to Andrew Yang. Every presidential candidate I've seen in the late 20th and 21st century has gone overboard in showing their American-ness. What makes Andrew Yang stand out?

throwawaybab323 6y ago

Just curious, what is Alibaba Cloud is it a service similar to AWS?

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

According to Chinese law, the government can quietly demand any information they want on anyone. A warrant in China? Hah. All they have to do is say "Give us the data stored on GCP host" and TikTok is legally obligated to comply. To be fair, it's not much different than in the United States unless the data belongs to a US citizen, which is why many companies are attempting to domicile cloud data in their own country.

noetokyo 6y ago
Wouldn't it look suspicious if they did that though? I'm curious to know. If they ever were audited wouldn't that stand out?
- kupopuffs 6y ago
  I dont see why. Accessing data on a service you are renting? Seems like normal everyday kinda stuff
  - noetokyo 6y ago
    I was thinking about the volume of the data and the type. But yeah they probably could easily obfuscate it. Wouldn't it just be cheaper to buy it at that rate though? Am I missing something?
    - aussieguy1234 6y ago
      If its just the IP address and basic info of some dissident, that wouldn't be alot of traffic
three_seagrass 6y ago
The Chinese National Intelligence Law applies to any and every company operating in China right now, including Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM, etc., not just TikTok. Ironically enough, Google is one of the few major tech companies that can't be compelled to hand over information to China.
- russli1993 6y ago
  The subsidiaries of these companies are subject to the intelligence law and whatever data these subsidiaries owns. If apple keeps US data away from the apple subsidiary in China then Apple is physically impossible to hand the data to Chinese government
  - three_seagrass 6y ago
    Apple keeps data in China. [1] They specifically made the move because of China's National Intelligence Law. [2] >To comply with the law, for instance, Apple announced that it would transfer the operation of iCloud in Mainland China to a government-sponsored data company named Guizhou-Cloud Big Data. [1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Internet_Security_Law#Ef...
    - jchb 6y ago
      Yes, but they only store data in China for Chinese customers (as per the registered region of the Apple ID). [1] [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351
      - three_seagrass 6y ago
        Right, which is still Apple complying with the Chinese National Intelligence Law and giving up private customer data to the Chinese government.
russli1993 6y ago
Tiktok' parent is bytedance is incorporated in Cayman islands. It has a US and a Chinese subsidiary. Chinese subsidiary runs douyin is subjected to the intelligence law. The US subsidiary runs tiktok and is managed by US employees and is not subject to the same law. The intelligence law would be problematic if bytedance is incorporated in China but it's not. The data and the code for tiktok is stored in the US and Chinese subsidiary cannot view that data.
- humaniania 6y ago
  Has there been any 3rd party audit that shows your claims to be true?
- gruez 6y ago
  >The intelligence law would be problematic if bytedance is incorporated in China but it's not. The data and the code for tiktok is stored in the US and Chinese subsidiary cannot view that data. But the issue is that bytedance is still physically located in China, and is probably subject to CCP pressure. eg. "it'd be a real shame if your beijing offices were shut down because of fire code violations". Or they go straight to the CEO and demand that they backdoor their US servers or he gets sent to the gulag. According to wikipedia, the CEO of TikTok reports directly to the CEO of Zhang Yiming, so there isn't really separation in terms of control.
- fiblye 6y ago
  >The US subsidiary runs tiktok and is managed by US employees and is not subject to the same law. Which leaves us with the question as to whether or not the government cares what the law says or whether they would back down if employees in China said they can't easily hand over foreign data.
  - justicezyx 6y ago
    Eventually tiktok will run anything that is remotely sensitive inside us soil. That has already began.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
bjourne 6y ago
> According to Chinese law, the government can quietly demand any information they want on anyone. A warrant in China? Hah. Which Chinese law?
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-national-intelligence-law/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-na...

lacker 6y ago

This deal was signed in May 2019, before the questions about Chinese control over TikTok had really come to the forefront. There's a decent chance that it's simply about Google giving TikTok a better deal, or other infrastructural features like global availability.

justicezyx 6y ago
Anyone who believed US would allow a Chinese controlled internet company to reach mainstream is plainly self deceiving. US and China are both super power. Don’t be naive that they would be doing things differently.
- tempestn 6y ago
  Pretty sure in 2019 if [Chinese company] offered to pay Google a bunch of money for cloud services, Google would take it. Unlike in China, large US corporations don't act as an extension of the government, so China being a rival superpower to the US wouldn't be terribly relevant. Not that the US in general avoids trading with China either.
  - justicezyx 6y ago
    What are you talking about? I am saying TikTok has to base its engineering entirely in US soil, given its prospect to become main stream.
    - throwaway1997 6y ago
      Tiktok is just a rebranded version of the app called 抖音 (Douyin). It's made in China
      - poiuytrewqa 6y ago
        True, but while tiktok is international and serve the content from servers not located in China. The Chinese version is different both in terms of content (you won't find the same "influencer") and in term of setup (servers in China with further settings to comply to stricter Chinese regulations)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

FooBarWidget 6y ago

Regardless of whether accusations of spying are true, I think these moves (including pulling out of Hong Kong) will do nothing. The politicians and a large part of the public have already decided Tiktok is guilty, with no way to prove innocence. A ban is just a matter of time.

xster 6y ago

Unlike Zoom which is an American company (and everyone feels like they need to pull an Andrew Yang and try extra hard to prove their American-ness for some reason), unless I'm mistaken I don't think TikTok really made any effort to "appear" "American". ByteDance might have downplayed their Chinese-ness and worked more than typical Chinese companies to cater to American audiences (like hiring Disney CEO in the same way Huawei has an America CSO), but I don't think they're making the case that they're an "American" company.

levosmetalo 6y ago
Why would it matter if it's an American or Chinese company? It's a sad world where we need to decide about company, product, person, idea, book or whatever based on their perceived country, colour, race, ideology, ...
- Jonnax 6y ago
  Well I guess at the minimum. China blocks American services in their country like Facebook and Twitter. For a foreign company to operate in China it needs to be majority Chinese owned. It can be argued that if foreign companies are not allowed to profit in China, then they shouldn't be able to do so abroad. Of course being the manufacturing capital of the world, they have a lot of leverage.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  It matters whether the company executives live in a democracy with rule of law or an authoritarian one-party state. I have no qualms doing business with American, Canadian, Indian, Japanese, or European (minus Hungary) companies... I would be very cautious doing business with Chinese, Russian, or Saudi firms.
morley 6y ago
I'm not sure I understand your reference to Andrew Yang. Every presidential candidate I've seen in the late 20th and 21st century has gone overboard in showing their American-ness. What makes Andrew Yang stand out?