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Did you really get chewed out? That seems pretty much like a deal breaker for me. Managers are collaborators, not parents, and have no place talking to co-worke

Did you really get chewed out? That seems pretty much like a deal breaker for me. Managers are collaborators, not parents, and have no place talking to co-workers in such a diminutive manner.

jahewson 6y ago
Parents shouldn’t talk to kids in a diminutive manner either for that matter!
watwut 6y ago
Parents are not supposed to talk to kids the way chewing managers talk to people. Also, business oriented managers are not collaborators in my experience and take such idea as offence. And yep, I was actively avoiding that environment too.
Jtsummers 6y ago
Yes. He came to my desk a week or so after he okayed the release of the software and took me to a conference room. I don't know how long he chewed me out for because I was red with rage but too terrified of losing my job to say anything. I've experienced similar rage with only one other manager [1]. He was 3 levels above me in the management chain, I really liked the two above me (the test manager, as I was in test at the time, and the software manager) and the guy above him [0]. I wanted to stay with them and I had a good friend there as well. But I did apply for a new job a couple months later, and left by the end of the year. It was my first professional development job and I learned a lot of things. One of the keys was this: Your boss and employer are not your friends. When you promise something to your friends, you owe it without any expectation of reward or return. But your employer owes you something for everything you give them. If they fail to meet their end of the bargain, that's on them and you are absolutely 100% free to leave. That can be money, time off, good working conditions, respect, trust, or any number of things. For me money was not primary (though it is nice): I wanted a good work environment, interesting work, and respect. Fail any of those and I will be looking for an exit, even if it's just a transfer within the same company. But respect is first in that. A boss who shows little respect to his employees is not someone I want to be around. I had that boss who chewed me out, I had another that kept me doing busy work for a year and kept saying worthless platitudes like "you're important to our work, we can't do this without you" when everything pointed to that being false. He was just empire building and trying to grow his direct report count, but it hurt those of us under him because he didn't have the work (but he did have the money) to keep us there. (I was still relatively junior at that job and stayed longer than I should've.) [0] The hierarchy was something like: VP of Engineering (several divisions below him) -> Chief of Engineer (Aviation) -> Chief of Software (Aviation) -> Chief of Testing (Aviation) -> Me; other production lines had similar chains below the VP. [1] When she was my manager I quit, or more accurately transferred to another group. Years later, I quit my last job for several reasons, one was her. She was not in our division while I was in that position, but they'd just hired her on. When I heard the name I had to verify, when I confirmed it was the same person I was ready to exit.
- tardismechanic 6y ago
  > that's on them and you are absolutely 100% free to leave. Not if you are on an H1B visa ;-)
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    Well, that gets to my other lesson: Save money aggressively so I'm not beholden to any employer. It's harder when you're taking care of a family on one income (and not making FAANG money), but I saved aggressively when I was young and single. I never actually had to use that option, but I was in a position where I could have lived (as a single healthy guy with no debt) for 4-5 years without needing a paycheck. I wouldn't have lived well mind you, it would've been tight to stretch it that far, but it was possible. My main mistake was putting too much in my 401k. I'm set when I retire, but I still don't have enough assets to get me to retirement. This works even when you're on a visa, but can take longer to be truly comfortable. I had a classmate in college who'd secured a work visa. His plan was to work for perhaps a decade in the US, save aggressively, and then return to his home country. Salaries in the US were 10x higher at the time than in his home country. Saving even 20%/year meant saving 2 years' of income every year he worked. And he was frugal enough to save a lot more than that. Invested well, taking what he learned back home, he would be set for life at this point (I didn't stay in touch so I only know the plan started well, not how it turned out).
    - dorkwood 6y ago
      > My main mistake was putting too much in my 401k Can you expand on this? I recently moved to the US and people keep telling me to get a 401k, but I haven't yet.
      - Izkata 6y ago
        A 401k is specifically a retirement account - you pay an extra 10% for withdrawing from it before age 59.5, which should add context to the rest of their paragraph.

Did you really get chewed out? That seems pretty much like a deal breaker for me. Managers are collaborators, not parents, and have no place talking to co-workers in such a diminutive manner.

jahewson 6y ago

Parents shouldn’t talk to kids in a diminutive manner either for that matter!

watwut 6y ago

Parents are not supposed to talk to kids the way chewing managers talk to people. Also, business oriented managers are not collaborators in my experience and take such idea as offence. And yep, I was actively avoiding that environment too.

Jtsummers 6y ago

Yes. He came to my desk a week or so after he okayed the release of the software and took me to a conference room. I don't know how long he chewed me out for because I was red with rage but too terrified of losing my job to say anything. I've experienced similar rage with only one other manager [1]. He was 3 levels above me in the management chain, I really liked the two above me (the test manager, as I was in test at the time, and the software manager) and the guy above him [0]. I wanted to stay with them and I had a good friend there as well. But I did apply for a new job a couple months later, and left by the end of the year. It was my first professional development job and I learned a lot of things. One of the keys was this: Your boss and employer are not your friends. When you promise something to your friends, you owe it without any expectation of reward or return. But your employer owes you something for everything you give them. If they fail to meet their end of the bargain, that's on them and you are absolutely 100% free to leave. That can be money, time off, good working conditions, respect, trust, or any number of things. For me money was not primary (though it is nice): I wanted a good work environment, interesting work, and respect. Fail any of those and I will be looking for an exit, even if it's just a transfer within the same company. But respect is first in that. A boss who shows little respect to his employees is not someone I want to be around. I had that boss who chewed me out, I had another that kept me doing busy work for a year and kept saying worthless platitudes like "you're important to our work, we can't do this without you" when everything pointed to that being false. He was just empire building and trying to grow his direct report count, but it hurt those of us under him because he didn't have the work (but he did have the money) to keep us there. (I was still relatively junior at that job and stayed longer than I should've.) [0] The hierarchy was something like: VP of Engineering (several divisions below him) -> Chief of Engineer (Aviation) -> Chief of Software (Aviation) -> Chief of Testing (Aviation) -> Me; other production lines had similar chains below the VP. [1] When she was my manager I quit, or more accurately transferred to another group. Years later, I quit my last job for several reasons, one was her. She was not in our division while I was in that position, but they'd just hired her on. When I heard the name I had to verify, when I confirmed it was the same person I was ready to exit.

tardismechanic 6y ago
> that's on them and you are absolutely 100% free to leave. Not if you are on an H1B visa ;-)
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  Well, that gets to my other lesson: Save money aggressively so I'm not beholden to any employer. It's harder when you're taking care of a family on one income (and not making FAANG money), but I saved aggressively when I was young and single. I never actually had to use that option, but I was in a position where I could have lived (as a single healthy guy with no debt) for 4-5 years without needing a paycheck. I wouldn't have lived well mind you, it would've been tight to stretch it that far, but it was possible. My main mistake was putting too much in my 401k. I'm set when I retire, but I still don't have enough assets to get me to retirement. This works even when you're on a visa, but can take longer to be truly comfortable. I had a classmate in college who'd secured a work visa. His plan was to work for perhaps a decade in the US, save aggressively, and then return to his home country. Salaries in the US were 10x higher at the time than in his home country. Saving even 20%/year meant saving 2 years' of income every year he worked. And he was frugal enough to save a lot more than that. Invested well, taking what he learned back home, he would be set for life at this point (I didn't stay in touch so I only know the plan started well, not how it turned out).
  - dorkwood 6y ago
    > My main mistake was putting too much in my 401k Can you expand on this? I recently moved to the US and people keep telling me to get a 401k, but I haven't yet.
    - Izkata 6y ago
      A 401k is specifically a retirement account - you pay an extra 10% for withdrawing from it before age 59.5, which should add context to the rest of their paragraph.