7 ms·

Ask HN: Startup Salaries in Europe

19 points by tsamtsam 6y ago

Are there legitimate, credible sources that aggregate startup salaries in European tech hubs? Or is anyone willing to share about this?

cgb223 6y ago
How does equity or stock options work in Europe? Is it as common as the US? What is normal for percentages/allotments?
- eb0la 6y ago
  The problem with options and stock in Europe are Taxes: rules change from one country to another. As a rule of thumb, usually you'll be taxed for your gross salary (including bonuses) + (value of stock received). AFAIK in my country (Spain), you'll be also taxed by the value of the options. Some other countries allow you to deduct the option buy cost - if any.
olegious 6y ago
I made about 2x less in Europe than the US in a similar sized startup, this is in product management. But there were other perks- 35 days minimum vacation (I was required to take those days by law), a very clear work life balance, more relaxed work environment and a better quality of life overall. I did end up moving back to the US to make 3x more (money is important to me right now), but am planning to return after my wife and I have kids- the quality of life differences are just too great.
- pepe56 6y ago
  I think this is a very good summary. The number on your paycheck is not representative of how good your quality of life is. You can almost never compare salaries 1:1 even in different cities of the same country. It was mentioned on this thread as well, but €60k in rural Germany, €80k in Berlin and €120k in Munich are quite similar in terms of what you get, cost of property/land and stuff. All 3 are basically very much upper middle class in those regions.
255kb 6y ago
There is a spreadsheet for France (in French). It's quite Paris-centric, but it gives an idea. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zjvz-Ud2TR3rco2BTq0X0Ovr29ohASCRiAATwmAX5YY/edit#gid=1145296357 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zjvz-Ud2TR3rco2BTq0X...
- toto444 6y ago
  Wow! Back end developper avance < 50K euros on average. That is not much. I am genuinely surprised.
fittyfox 6y ago
Living in Berlin, various StartUp experiences. 2013: 34k (junior Frontend) 2014: 40k (Fullstack JS) 2015: 50k (Frontend) 2016: 60k (Frontend) Went freelancing after this... 2020: 85k offer for Senior Software Engineer All numbers are from StartUps. You have to know however that you probably won't find a unicorn in Europe just yet. It's not the same mentality as in the US. I currently work for a US company with a European location, and it differs quite a lot. 30+ days holidays + country wide holidays 38h work week Free day care where I live I checked and I would have to earn around 140k in New York or 280k in San Francisco to have the "same" quality of life as 85k in Berlin buys me. However, in Berlin I have additional benefits like the ones mentioned above. I pay around 1100 Euros for a 110qm apartment "downtown" and have no car.
- tsamtsam 6y ago
  Thank you for this! Are the salaries from 2013-2016 from the same startup or mutiple ones?
  - fittyfox 6y ago
    Multiple StartUps. I switched jobs every 6-12 months and got a nice salary bump along the way. I don't know how the situation is at the moment with COVID though.
    - tsamtsam 6y ago
      Any particular reason for switching every 6-12 months and is that common practice? Trying to get a sensing here.
      - fittyfox 6y ago
        Just me :) First StartUp was amazing, super professional people. Run out of money and laid people off (StartUp still lives and grows now) Second StartUp was led by mid-twenty Bros and not the culture I wanted to be part of. Third StartUp led by people bought in by a bigger corporation. Had no idea how to run a company. Best team I have ever worked in but worst business I ever worked in as well. Almost everyone left after being there for 6 months. Fourth StartUp ad tech industry. Learned a great deal, solid co-workers, but had enough of "We are a cool StartUp" vibe and went freelancing. General speaking, I don't dislike StartUps, but oh boy I am too old for this now (35 years old).
Peroni 6y ago
Happy to give you specific salaries for London, UK. Let me know what roles you're interested in and I'll post numbers. For context, I've been running talent functions for tech startups in London for about ten years as well as running a number of tech job boards over the years.
- tsamtsam 6y ago
  I'd be super grateful if you could share numbers for frontend/fullstack roles!
  - Peroni 6y ago
    Typical entry level roles start at around £32k. Senior individual contributor roles (so not factoring in team lead roles) go to as high as £90k but around £70k is more typical of the average senior frontend developer.
inertiatic 6y ago
I live in Athens, Greece, work for a company that calls itself a startup (but has been around for a decade) and I make ~35k a year. My general sentiment is that locally that's more than what most startups are paying, but at the same time most startups aren't hiring mid-senior people. As far as regular tech companies go, it's a good but not great salary.
yamrzou 6y ago
There is this survey from 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15088840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15088840 Answers here: https://goo.gl/X45Dtt https://goo.gl/X45Dtt Maybe worth a re-post on HN.
zn44 6y ago
in London 30-45 - junior 45-60 - mid 60-80 - senior 80-95 - principal 95-120 - vp
- Peroni 6y ago
  Those VP numbers aren't quite right. The average for VP is around £160k and go up to around £190k.
  - zn44 6y ago
    All above is what I’ve offered at my startup (Series A) so it’s accurate at least for one business ;) I agree range for management positions options would be much higher for later stage startups, with great bonus and a lot of shares/options
glotgizmo 6y ago
UK, small county with growing tech scene. My personal experience: Junior - £16-18k Mid Web Developer - £30k Very early startup React/Laravel - £28-30k Senior/Head of Web Development - £30k Software Developer - ~£42k Expected future salary - £50k-£60k (~15 years experience) Reading HN can give you a very unrealistic view of salaries when you look at the UK outside of London.
dakiol 6y ago
A good rule of thumb (although it's difficult to summarize the salaries of all the countries in Europe) is: Juniors up to 30K. Mediors up to 50K. Seniors up to 80K. This is for software engineers.
- ck_one 6y ago
  At least in Germany they are higher. A friend who is still in college got an offer as a new grad for ~75k. This offer is probably in the top 10% though. I don't know a single friend from college who starts with less than 45k as a new grad. Those who get 45k usually don't have internship experience.
  - yulaow 6y ago
    In Italy a senior dev would often get less than half of that (pretax). Basically just in Milan salary are higher but a junior would not get more than 30k
    - cgb223 6y ago
      What does that look like post tax? Is it livable?
      - yulaow 6y ago
        30k is around 1700euros/month after tax. Sounds like a little but it is already 200euros/month over the average salary in Italy and this is for a junior position (even if I have to admit I saw often 26000-28000 euro as a common pre-tax salary for juniors outside Milan) For comparison for a two rooms apartment in a city (again, except for Milan) you usually pay around 400-700e so it is livable and you can save enough money month over month. If you are a couple with both around the same pay you can live quite well and with a senior role (typically you get 38k = 2100 euros/month but I see some good companies offer 45k = 2450euros/month) you really have no problems at all and can save a lot + buy a 3 or 4 rooms apartment easily. Then Milan is an exception. There as a senior you can get quite easily 65k = 3400 euro/month to 85k but the cost of life is London-level and rents are absurdly high in any part of the city, so much that mostly you want to live outside of it and just commute via trains.

19 points by tsamtsam 6y ago

Are there legitimate, credible sources that aggregate startup salaries in European tech hubs? Or is anyone willing to share about this?

cgb223 6y ago

How does equity or stock options work in Europe? Is it as common as the US? What is normal for percentages/allotments?

eb0la 6y ago
The problem with options and stock in Europe are Taxes: rules change from one country to another. As a rule of thumb, usually you'll be taxed for your gross salary (including bonuses) + (value of stock received). AFAIK in my country (Spain), you'll be also taxed by the value of the options. Some other countries allow you to deduct the option buy cost - if any.

olegious 6y ago

I made about 2x less in Europe than the US in a similar sized startup, this is in product management. But there were other perks- 35 days minimum vacation (I was required to take those days by law), a very clear work life balance, more relaxed work environment and a better quality of life overall. I did end up moving back to the US to make 3x more (money is important to me right now), but am planning to return after my wife and I have kids- the quality of life differences are just too great.

pepe56 6y ago
I think this is a very good summary. The number on your paycheck is not representative of how good your quality of life is. You can almost never compare salaries 1:1 even in different cities of the same country. It was mentioned on this thread as well, but €60k in rural Germany, €80k in Berlin and €120k in Munich are quite similar in terms of what you get, cost of property/land and stuff. All 3 are basically very much upper middle class in those regions.

255kb 6y ago

There is a spreadsheet for France (in French). It's quite Paris-centric, but it gives an idea. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zjvz-Ud2TR3rco2BTq0X0Ovr29ohASCRiAATwmAX5YY/edit#gid=1145296357 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zjvz-Ud2TR3rco2BTq0X...

toto444 6y ago
Wow! Back end developper avance < 50K euros on average. That is not much. I am genuinely surprised.

fittyfox 6y ago

Living in Berlin, various StartUp experiences. 2013: 34k (junior Frontend) 2014: 40k (Fullstack JS) 2015: 50k (Frontend) 2016: 60k (Frontend) Went freelancing after this... 2020: 85k offer for Senior Software Engineer All numbers are from StartUps. You have to know however that you probably won't find a unicorn in Europe just yet. It's not the same mentality as in the US. I currently work for a US company with a European location, and it differs quite a lot. 30+ days holidays + country wide holidays 38h work week Free day care where I live I checked and I would have to earn around 140k in New York or 280k in San Francisco to have the "same" quality of life as 85k in Berlin buys me. However, in Berlin I have additional benefits like the ones mentioned above. I pay around 1100 Euros for a 110qm apartment "downtown" and have no car.

tsamtsam 6y ago
Thank you for this! Are the salaries from 2013-2016 from the same startup or mutiple ones?
- fittyfox 6y ago
  Multiple StartUps. I switched jobs every 6-12 months and got a nice salary bump along the way. I don't know how the situation is at the moment with COVID though.
  - tsamtsam 6y ago
    Any particular reason for switching every 6-12 months and is that common practice? Trying to get a sensing here.
    - fittyfox 6y ago
      Just me :) First StartUp was amazing, super professional people. Run out of money and laid people off (StartUp still lives and grows now) Second StartUp was led by mid-twenty Bros and not the culture I wanted to be part of. Third StartUp led by people bought in by a bigger corporation. Had no idea how to run a company. Best team I have ever worked in but worst business I ever worked in as well. Almost everyone left after being there for 6 months. Fourth StartUp ad tech industry. Learned a great deal, solid co-workers, but had enough of "We are a cool StartUp" vibe and went freelancing. General speaking, I don't dislike StartUps, but oh boy I am too old for this now (35 years old).

Peroni 6y ago

Happy to give you specific salaries for London, UK. Let me know what roles you're interested in and I'll post numbers. For context, I've been running talent functions for tech startups in London for about ten years as well as running a number of tech job boards over the years.

tsamtsam 6y ago
I'd be super grateful if you could share numbers for frontend/fullstack roles!
- Peroni 6y ago
  Typical entry level roles start at around £32k. Senior individual contributor roles (so not factoring in team lead roles) go to as high as £90k but around £70k is more typical of the average senior frontend developer.

inertiatic 6y ago

I live in Athens, Greece, work for a company that calls itself a startup (but has been around for a decade) and I make ~35k a year. My general sentiment is that locally that's more than what most startups are paying, but at the same time most startups aren't hiring mid-senior people. As far as regular tech companies go, it's a good but not great salary.

yamrzou 6y ago

There is this survey from 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15088840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15088840 Answers here: https://goo.gl/X45Dtt https://goo.gl/X45Dtt Maybe worth a re-post on HN.

zn44 6y ago

in London 30-45 - junior 45-60 - mid 60-80 - senior 80-95 - principal 95-120 - vp

Peroni 6y ago
Those VP numbers aren't quite right. The average for VP is around £160k and go up to around £190k.
- zn44 6y ago
  All above is what I’ve offered at my startup (Series A) so it’s accurate at least for one business ;) I agree range for management positions options would be much higher for later stage startups, with great bonus and a lot of shares/options

glotgizmo 6y ago

UK, small county with growing tech scene. My personal experience: Junior - £16-18k Mid Web Developer - £30k Very early startup React/Laravel - £28-30k Senior/Head of Web Development - £30k Software Developer - ~£42k Expected future salary - £50k-£60k (~15 years experience) Reading HN can give you a very unrealistic view of salaries when you look at the UK outside of London.

dakiol 6y ago

A good rule of thumb (although it's difficult to summarize the salaries of all the countries in Europe) is: Juniors up to 30K. Mediors up to 50K. Seniors up to 80K. This is for software engineers.

ck_one 6y ago
At least in Germany they are higher. A friend who is still in college got an offer as a new grad for ~75k. This offer is probably in the top 10% though. I don't know a single friend from college who starts with less than 45k as a new grad. Those who get 45k usually don't have internship experience.
- yulaow 6y ago
  In Italy a senior dev would often get less than half of that (pretax). Basically just in Milan salary are higher but a junior would not get more than 30k
  - cgb223 6y ago
    What does that look like post tax? Is it livable?
    - yulaow 6y ago
      30k is around 1700euros/month after tax. Sounds like a little but it is already 200euros/month over the average salary in Italy and this is for a junior position (even if I have to admit I saw often 26000-28000 euro as a common pre-tax salary for juniors outside Milan) For comparison for a two rooms apartment in a city (again, except for Milan) you usually pay around 400-700e so it is livable and you can save enough money month over month. If you are a couple with both around the same pay you can live quite well and with a senior role (typically you get 38k = 2100 euros/month but I see some good companies offer 45k = 2450euros/month) you really have no problems at all and can save a lot + buy a 3 or 4 rooms apartment easily. Then Milan is an exception. There as a senior you can get quite easily 65k = 3400 euro/month to 85k but the cost of life is London-level and rents are absurdly high in any part of the city, so much that mostly you want to live outside of it and just commute via trains.