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I don't think it's dangerous, necessarily, unless you ignore people's personal responsibility in the situation as well. As currently designed, "Autopilot" requi

I don't think it's dangerous, necessarily, unless you ignore people's personal responsibility in the situation as well. As currently designed, "Autopilot" requires you to keep your hands on the steering wheel, provide rotational counter-weight on it, and you have to agree to safety and attention disclaimers before you can even enable the features. Yes, there are absolutely misconceptions that may happen with the general public who think that "Autopilot" is completely autonomous but anyone who actually owns the vehicle and has the ability to drive with it would have to be willingly negligent in order to consider it "dangerous" or "deceptive". As an example, someone posted a link as a comment to the OP stating that Elon has been marketing Teslas as FSD when, in reality, the blog post in question just says that every Tesla has the hardware that makes it capable of it and that's absolutely true. You're right that the general public auto-translates "Autopilot" to "Fully Self-Driving" but that's just as much a media and reporting problem as it is a Tesla or Elon problem.

bakuninsbart 6y ago
Apparently, the dictionaries are in conspiracy with the general public, as they also define autopilot as "a device that keeps aircraft, spacecraft, and ships moving in a particular direction without human involvement". The etymology of the word automatic is also very telling. Generally we ascribe meaning to words by how people use it, and I'm not sure I'd call marketers people.
- dkonofalski 6y ago
  Is a car now interchangeable with "aircraft, spacecraft, or ships"?
  - callalex 6y ago
    Yes.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > Apparently, the dictionaries are in conspiracy with the general public, as they also define autopilot as "a device that keeps aircraft, spacecraft, and ships moving in a particular direction without human involvement". This is describing cruise control.
  - dx87 6y ago
    Cruise control just maintains speed, not direction. It'll happily plow you into an obstacle without human intervention.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      Plowing you into an obstacle is what you get when you maintain your existing course and speed without regard for what's in front of you. "Forward" is a direction. And whether you call it cruise control or not, the definition still matches a thing the car actually does. It has lane keep assist too.
      - seppel 6y ago
        The thing is: Cruise control maintains the speed without human supervision. Lane keep assist does not keep in a lane without human supervision (hence it is only assist).
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        > The thing is: Cruise control maintains the speed without human supervision. At which point you would immediately veer off the highway and smash into an overpass, so no it doesn't. It maintains speed without human involvement, which is the same thing lane keep assist does. It steers the car to keep it in the lane. Presumably even if the lane goes out to a pier and dumps the car in the sea.
        seppel 6y ago
        Cruise control maintains the speed as long as it is physically possible. You don't need to supervise that it maintains the speed, it is able to do it on its own. It is (usually) even better than a human in maintaining the speed. Of course you still need to control the steering wheel or brake for obstacles -- but that's nothing cruise control promises to control. On the other hand, lane assist is good, but it is not good enough to keep the lane without supervision. It can get confused by strange markings, obstacles, construction work, weather etc. It might fail to keep the car in its lane, although it is easily possible for a human.
JJMcJ 6y ago
But autopilot is explicitly a term for hands off operation. In general, in driving, things happen too fast for any control assist system to allow hands off driving. EDIT: Any existing control assist system And I don't think we are that close, since "self driving cars" still seem to be limited to "driving at 25 MPH around Mountain View and Sunnyvale where the curbs and streets have been pre-mapped to within inches".
- drcross 6y ago
  >But autopilot is explicitly a term for hands off operation. I see you've never skippered a boat.
  - JJMcJ 6y ago
    No, just the common understanding of autopilot for aircraft. I assume, just like with cars, things can happen quickly with a boat.
    - seppel 6y ago
      > No, just the common understanding of autopilot for aircraft. The autopilot for a aircraft does whatever it is supposed to do without human supervision. If you turn on keep heading, it will keep the heading (within physical limitations). I guess it is similar for a boat. Lane assist, however, requires constant human supervision because it is just an assistant. I think this is the important difference that needs to be highlighted here.
      - JJMcJ 6y ago
        I agree, and Tesla's "autopilot" was just lane keeping and adaptive cruise control along with a bit of collision avoidance.
  - LeChuck 6y ago
    I have. Lots of them, all over the world. On every ship I've worked on the track pilot is used for hands off operation. Hell, some guys would do paperwork or work on stowage plans during their watch.
adamjcook 6y ago
> I don't think it's dangerous, necessarily, unless you ignore people's personal responsibility in the situation as well. Yes, but let us recognize the stark reality and known limitations of "the people" in the driving public - as Tesla should (and in my opinion did not or does not). Not suggesting you are, but Tesla cannot hand-wave it. While their may be an outsized amount of technical persons here on Hacker News that are perhaps aware of at least some of the technical risks and limitations of Autopilot and/or that state of autonomous driving systems in general, it is simply unrealistic and a fiction to expect that the broader driving public is going to be able to safely utilize an opaque, autonomous system with minimal safeguards and written instructions - particularly if they can be easily defeated. We are talking here of newly minted drivers in their compulsive teen years all the way through older persons who may not familiar with technology nearly at all. Take some time to visit TikTok and YouTube[1] where it is replete with fans and other owners are "showing off" Autopilot in dangerous and creatively dangerous ways that generate clicks and likes, pushing Autopilot to the limit and/or otherwise not paying attention to the roadway while Autopilot is engaged. It is difficult for me to fathom that Tesla is not acutely aware of these issues given their focus on social media viral campaigns. In fact, when my wife and I test drove a Model X in Chicago a few years back, one of the first things that the Tesla salesperson did was to encourage my wife to remove her hands from the steering wheel in Autopilot mode (which she did not). I cannot say for sure if this internal Tesla sales practice is alive and well today, but I would discount it. In my view, this is and was always a core part of Tesla's sales model to move metal - and, thus, I think that Tesla tacitly approves of the social media abuses I noted above to draw attention to their vehicles (unless they are talking with a regulator or in a court of law). Case in point, other automakers are taking the strategy of installing in-cabin driver monitoring systems in their vehicles and/or limiting the use of autonomous features to certain roadways and roadway types which I think is at least safer in principle given the unsophistication of the driving public. Tesla could employ the same in their vehicles, but then it would take away a key differentiator in their product from all others. Tesla knows this, so they resist. [1] https://youtu.be/ja5Lt8rzKGg https://youtu.be/ja5Lt8rzKGg
- jaybeeayyy 6y ago
  >when my wife and I test drove a Model X in Chicago a few years back, one of the first things that the Tesla salesperson did was to encourage my wife to remove her hands from the steering wheel in Autopilot mode My fiancee was told to do the same thing with her new Toyota Corolla when purchasing it with lane assist...not that it's totally related but sort of enforces your point more that the general public is where the issue really shines.
WA 6y ago
Tesla’s own website mentions Autopilot and full self-driving capabilities on the same page. Just go and configure a car and see if anyone could ever misunderstand Autopilot in that context. Add a bunch of cool YouTube videos of people presumably sleeping on the wheel. Add a CEO who claims "car can run nightly errands soon" and "level 5 very soon" (by redefining level 5) and you easily have the currenct perception.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  It's like the Summon feature. "Will come to you across the parking lot with no intervention while you deal with a fussing child". Must have vision of vehicle at all times. Must maintain one finger on dead man's switch on phone. Vehicle owner must not be distracted. (Oh, and it may well drive through your half-opened garage door because there's no sensors at that height, and nothing could ever go wrong with a garage door, right?)
tsimionescu 6y ago
> As an example, someone posted a link as a comment to the OP stating that Elon has been marketing Teslas as FSD when, in reality, the blog post in question just says that every Tesla has the hardware that makes it capable of it and that's absolutely true. Actually, that is an utter lie, as there isn't any hardware and/or software in the world right now that is capable of "Fully Self-Driving". Sure, in limited conditions, many of these cars can drive on their own and not immediately hit the first tree or child they can find. But the current track record, especially for Tesla, is not much greater than that. And there is no hardware that could drive a car in heavy rain or snow. Hell, the sensors we have would just not work in some of the real driving conditions that people care about.

bakuninsbart 6y ago

Apparently, the dictionaries are in conspiracy with the general public, as they also define autopilot as "a device that keeps aircraft, spacecraft, and ships moving in a particular direction without human involvement". The etymology of the word automatic is also very telling. Generally we ascribe meaning to words by how people use it, and I'm not sure I'd call marketers people.

dkonofalski 6y ago
Is a car now interchangeable with "aircraft, spacecraft, or ships"?
- callalex 6y ago
  Yes.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> Apparently, the dictionaries are in conspiracy with the general public, as they also define autopilot as "a device that keeps aircraft, spacecraft, and ships moving in a particular direction without human involvement". This is describing cruise control.
- dx87 6y ago
  Cruise control just maintains speed, not direction. It'll happily plow you into an obstacle without human intervention.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    Plowing you into an obstacle is what you get when you maintain your existing course and speed without regard for what's in front of you. "Forward" is a direction. And whether you call it cruise control or not, the definition still matches a thing the car actually does. It has lane keep assist too.
    - seppel 6y ago
      The thing is: Cruise control maintains the speed without human supervision. Lane keep assist does not keep in a lane without human supervision (hence it is only assist).
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        > The thing is: Cruise control maintains the speed without human supervision. At which point you would immediately veer off the highway and smash into an overpass, so no it doesn't. It maintains speed without human involvement, which is the same thing lane keep assist does. It steers the car to keep it in the lane. Presumably even if the lane goes out to a pier and dumps the car in the sea.
        seppel 6y ago
        Cruise control maintains the speed as long as it is physically possible. You don't need to supervise that it maintains the speed, it is able to do it on its own. It is (usually) even better than a human in maintaining the speed. Of course you still need to control the steering wheel or brake for obstacles -- but that's nothing cruise control promises to control. On the other hand, lane assist is good, but it is not good enough to keep the lane without supervision. It can get confused by strange markings, obstacles, construction work, weather etc. It might fail to keep the car in its lane, although it is easily possible for a human.

JJMcJ 6y ago

But autopilot is explicitly a term for hands off operation. In general, in driving, things happen too fast for any control assist system to allow hands off driving. EDIT: Any existing control assist system And I don't think we are that close, since "self driving cars" still seem to be limited to "driving at 25 MPH around Mountain View and Sunnyvale where the curbs and streets have been pre-mapped to within inches".

drcross 6y ago
>But autopilot is explicitly a term for hands off operation. I see you've never skippered a boat.
- JJMcJ 6y ago
  No, just the common understanding of autopilot for aircraft. I assume, just like with cars, things can happen quickly with a boat.
  - seppel 6y ago
    > No, just the common understanding of autopilot for aircraft. The autopilot for a aircraft does whatever it is supposed to do without human supervision. If you turn on keep heading, it will keep the heading (within physical limitations). I guess it is similar for a boat. Lane assist, however, requires constant human supervision because it is just an assistant. I think this is the important difference that needs to be highlighted here.
    - JJMcJ 6y ago
      I agree, and Tesla's "autopilot" was just lane keeping and adaptive cruise control along with a bit of collision avoidance.
- LeChuck 6y ago
  I have. Lots of them, all over the world. On every ship I've worked on the track pilot is used for hands off operation. Hell, some guys would do paperwork or work on stowage plans during their watch.

adamjcook 6y ago

> I don't think it's dangerous, necessarily, unless you ignore people's personal responsibility in the situation as well. Yes, but let us recognize the stark reality and known limitations of "the people" in the driving public - as Tesla should (and in my opinion did not or does not). Not suggesting you are, but Tesla cannot hand-wave it. While their may be an outsized amount of technical persons here on Hacker News that are perhaps aware of at least some of the technical risks and limitations of Autopilot and/or that state of autonomous driving systems in general, it is simply unrealistic and a fiction to expect that the broader driving public is going to be able to safely utilize an opaque, autonomous system with minimal safeguards and written instructions - particularly if they can be easily defeated. We are talking here of newly minted drivers in their compulsive teen years all the way through older persons who may not familiar with technology nearly at all. Take some time to visit TikTok and YouTube[1] where it is replete with fans and other owners are "showing off" Autopilot in dangerous and creatively dangerous ways that generate clicks and likes, pushing Autopilot to the limit and/or otherwise not paying attention to the roadway while Autopilot is engaged. It is difficult for me to fathom that Tesla is not acutely aware of these issues given their focus on social media viral campaigns. In fact, when my wife and I test drove a Model X in Chicago a few years back, one of the first things that the Tesla salesperson did was to encourage my wife to remove her hands from the steering wheel in Autopilot mode (which she did not). I cannot say for sure if this internal Tesla sales practice is alive and well today, but I would discount it. In my view, this is and was always a core part of Tesla's sales model to move metal - and, thus, I think that Tesla tacitly approves of the social media abuses I noted above to draw attention to their vehicles (unless they are talking with a regulator or in a court of law). Case in point, other automakers are taking the strategy of installing in-cabin driver monitoring systems in their vehicles and/or limiting the use of autonomous features to certain roadways and roadway types which I think is at least safer in principle given the unsophistication of the driving public. Tesla could employ the same in their vehicles, but then it would take away a key differentiator in their product from all others. Tesla knows this, so they resist. [1] https://youtu.be/ja5Lt8rzKGg https://youtu.be/ja5Lt8rzKGg

jaybeeayyy 6y ago
>when my wife and I test drove a Model X in Chicago a few years back, one of the first things that the Tesla salesperson did was to encourage my wife to remove her hands from the steering wheel in Autopilot mode My fiancee was told to do the same thing with her new Toyota Corolla when purchasing it with lane assist...not that it's totally related but sort of enforces your point more that the general public is where the issue really shines.

WA 6y ago

Tesla’s own website mentions Autopilot and full self-driving capabilities on the same page. Just go and configure a car and see if anyone could ever misunderstand Autopilot in that context. Add a bunch of cool YouTube videos of people presumably sleeping on the wheel. Add a CEO who claims "car can run nightly errands soon" and "level 5 very soon" (by redefining level 5) and you easily have the currenct perception.

FireBeyond 6y ago
It's like the Summon feature. "Will come to you across the parking lot with no intervention while you deal with a fussing child". Must have vision of vehicle at all times. Must maintain one finger on dead man's switch on phone. Vehicle owner must not be distracted. (Oh, and it may well drive through your half-opened garage door because there's no sensors at that height, and nothing could ever go wrong with a garage door, right?)

tsimionescu 6y ago

> As an example, someone posted a link as a comment to the OP stating that Elon has been marketing Teslas as FSD when, in reality, the blog post in question just says that every Tesla has the hardware that makes it capable of it and that's absolutely true. Actually, that is an utter lie, as there isn't any hardware and/or software in the world right now that is capable of "Fully Self-Driving". Sure, in limited conditions, many of these cars can drive on their own and not immediately hit the first tree or child they can find. But the current track record, especially for Tesla, is not much greater than that. And there is no hardware that could drive a car in heavy rain or snow. Hell, the sensors we have would just not work in some of the real driving conditions that people care about.