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Actually I think the name "Autopilot" is the least troublesome part of the marketing. Other car makers call their systems CoPilot, ProPilot, SuperCruise, whate

Actually I think the name "Autopilot" is the least troublesome part of the marketing. Other car makers call their systems CoPilot, ProPilot, SuperCruise, whatever and I think the name matters less than the communication and details of using the system. The main Autopilot marketing page shows a video of a Tesla driving itself, says the Driver is there for legal purposes only, and provides no other disclaimers about the limitations, or that the demonstration is of internal test software and not reproducible with consumer vehicles. https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot Actually using the car, the system is fairly clear about the need to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel, but it allows you to engage Autosteer in areas the manual says you should not (ie city streets) and does not clearly indicate what areas are good or not good for using Autosteer. SuperCruise only works on specifically listed highway segments, which limits its usefulness but also prevents these issues. Also Tesla relies on the steering wheel torque sensor to determine driver presence. This leads to false negatives (my hands are on the wheel but not providing a turning force so the car gives an alert) and is easily bypassed (there are third party products that clip on to the steering wheel and provide enough weight to fool the system). Competing systems (SuperCruise, BMW) use driver monitor cameras or capacitive wheel sensors to provide a better indication of driver attentiveness.

enahs-sf 6y ago
It would be a huge improvement (and a weight off my shoulders as a driver) if the car could show you the confidence level it has in the current road situation. Eg. I took a tesla through the snow, and I wouldn't trust autopilot with my life in that situation, but when driving on 80 towards tahoe during the summer, it's a godsend.
natch 6y ago
>no other disclaimers about the limitations No other disclaimers? Are we reading the same page you linked? The title of the page clearly says “Future of Driving” “Autopilot today and full self-driving capabilities in the future...“ The page then goes on to define what Autopilot is and concludes with this: “Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.”
- Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
  Why is that so difficult for people on HN to find? I have read that page once, built an understanding based on that - and then watched youtube videos with the exact operation of the Autopilot, and talked to owners of it - and my understanding did not change, it was exactly the same as the one I received on the Tesla's own page... Am I speaking better English than these people or what? Why can't they just read the website fully? Why are so many people on HN say that Tesla is trying to fool someone?
  - SuoDuanDao 6y ago
    I suspect it's a need to be the smartest person in the room. A lot of people are long Tesla, a lot of the same people are optimistic by temperament, taking a pessimistic view is an easy way to stand by your reality-filter and look smart if you turn out right. Then the filter does its job and makes them blind to the kind of things you've pointed out. The only way for this to change is people to get skin in the game so that it hurts when their theses are proven wrong. I wonder how many of the people alleging fraud are actually short TSLA.
- stetrain 6y ago
  My point was about the video itself, which features prominently on the page. Yes, there are disclaimers on that page. I just think that being up-front with the current state of the system (driver assistance) would be clearer than starting with autonomous driving and then adding a bunch of qualifiers to it. And it seems the German court agrees.
lsh123 6y ago
Audi calls it adaptive cruise control which I find correctly describes what it does.
- Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
  "Adaptive cruise control" sounds like the vechicle is just controlling speed based on the car in front. It does not sound like it implies any type of auto-steering.
  - maigret 6y ago
    Yes, this is exactly what this does. "Lane assist" does the steering. I think the good think that Tesla does though, is having a simpler package for all of that. German makers can't keep but making 5 different systems that you can (or not) combine so they can charge more $$$.
Shivetya 6y ago
Considering they now allow use of the interior camera during events there is no reason they cannot expand on that for insuring the driver is paying attention
jariel 6y ago
All of it is too much. It should be called 'Cruise Control Plus'. Or 'Cruise Control Augmentation'. It shouldn't really even hint at autonomy.
FartyMcFarter 6y ago
> The main Autopilot marketing page shows a video of a Tesla driving itself, says the Driver is there for legal purposes only This alone feels like lawsuit-bait. I'm surprised it took this long for the courts to get involved.
- natch 6y ago
  Feels like, yes, if you go by what the commenter you are replying to said. But read the page for yourself before deciding. It is not as the commenter described.
  - mannykannot 6y ago
    If you are claiming that the comment is deceptive, you should point out why we should regard it as such. My objection to this statement is that it is one side of a deeply inconsistent, two-faced message from Tesla. Specifically, the two faces are "it can drive itself - the driver is only there for legal reasons" and "the driver must be attentive and ready to respond to any errors immediately, and is responsible for whatever happens if he does not respond in time."
    - natch 6y ago
      I don't know if the comment is being deceptive. I'd say the commenter is at least confused. And I did point out why. The confusing thing is Elon and Tesla both share a lot of information about timelines for prototype technology. "In six months it will do x" kind of statements. The two faces you are confused by have names. The first face is prototype technology. The second face is shipping cars that we regular consumers can drive. All the confusion can be cleared up by simply asking yourself, for each statement, which of these are they talking about in the current context? Keeping in mind that both prototypes and current shipping cars can appear sometimes in the same context, such as that web page. It takes a bit of discernment and careful reading. If you (general you, not you in particular) are predisposed to assume Elon is a massively deceptive fraudster who is constantly lying and hyping, then it's convenient to overlook that these two faces have a perfectly logical division that fits reality and makes everything consistent. That is what a lot of people do. They overlook the fact that both Elon and Tesla need to lay out their vision for what is coming in the future. When Elon and Tesla talk about this stuff, they often need to talk about prototype technology. They often make it clear when they are doing this. I mean, look at the web page. The words are there. It does say "future" and "current cars don't have this blah blah" (although Elon in his interviews doesn't do as good of a job, it's often obvious with a moment's thought that he's talking about prototypes, to those of us who are familiar with the fact that there will be a multi-year regulatory process before whatever feature he mentions will come out). I guess the problem is that technology is complex. Self driving cars are another level of complex because of the context in which they are situated, amongst other cars and drivers who need to learn to deal with the new robo drivers. Socially complex. Legally complex. Complex environments. Complex timelines. Complex rollouts. Complex technology evolution. You don't just flip a switch with this stuff and turn it on one day, because of the education aspects where other drivers are going to be in the picture. People aren't used to this level of complexity. Elon can't spell all this stuff out in every answer to every interview question. It's up to you to understand this. Average drivers of a Tesla don't need to understand all the complexity. They just need to understand that the current system requires them to be attentive and ready to take over at any time. Tesla makes this abundantly clear in many ways, including on the web site, during the sales process, during delivery, and with active messaging and interventions while driving if the driver does not get it.
PCChris 6y ago
They do say on the same page you linked that "Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous."
- amznthrwaway 6y ago
  They've also been promising full autonomy for five years straight. The wording of "Current autopilot features" is intended to help deceive the public into thinking that full autonomy is coming next year.
  - LoSboccacc 6y ago
    > next year this year https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/07/09/elon-musk-tesla-will-have-level-5-self-driving-cars-this-year/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/07/09/elon-mu...
    - amznthrwaway 6y ago
      2014: in a year https://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6894875/elon-musk-says-next-years-tesla-cars-will-be-able-to-self-drive-90-percent-of-the-time https://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6894875/elon-musk-says-ne... 2015: in two years https://fortune.com/2015/12/21/elon-musk-interview/ https://fortune.com/2015/12/21/elon-musk-interview/ 2016: in a year https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-autonomous-tesla-drive-across-country-by-end-of-2017-2016-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-autonomous-tesla-d... 2017: in two years https://electrek.co/2017/12/08/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-timeline/ https://electrek.co/2017/12/08/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-... 2018: in a year https://electrek.co/2018/03/11/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-self-driving-next-year/ https://electrek.co/2018/03/11/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-self-driv... 2019: in a year https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-full-self-driving-2019-2020-promise/ https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-full-self-drivin...
      - natch 6y ago
        Are you really taking these as promises? Link 1: "will probably" Link 2: "I think" Link 3: "He said he expected…" and "It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available" Link 4: "He predicts" Link 5: "He thinks" Link 6: "I think" And in some of these he's not talking about production cars, but is talking about prototype vehicles in Tesla's development fleet.

enahs-sf 6y ago

It would be a huge improvement (and a weight off my shoulders as a driver) if the car could show you the confidence level it has in the current road situation. Eg. I took a tesla through the snow, and I wouldn't trust autopilot with my life in that situation, but when driving on 80 towards tahoe during the summer, it's a godsend.

natch 6y ago

>no other disclaimers about the limitations No other disclaimers? Are we reading the same page you linked? The title of the page clearly says “Future of Driving” “Autopilot today and full self-driving capabilities in the future...“ The page then goes on to define what Autopilot is and concludes with this: “Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.”

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
Why is that so difficult for people on HN to find? I have read that page once, built an understanding based on that - and then watched youtube videos with the exact operation of the Autopilot, and talked to owners of it - and my understanding did not change, it was exactly the same as the one I received on the Tesla's own page... Am I speaking better English than these people or what? Why can't they just read the website fully? Why are so many people on HN say that Tesla is trying to fool someone?
- SuoDuanDao 6y ago
  I suspect it's a need to be the smartest person in the room. A lot of people are long Tesla, a lot of the same people are optimistic by temperament, taking a pessimistic view is an easy way to stand by your reality-filter and look smart if you turn out right. Then the filter does its job and makes them blind to the kind of things you've pointed out. The only way for this to change is people to get skin in the game so that it hurts when their theses are proven wrong. I wonder how many of the people alleging fraud are actually short TSLA.
stetrain 6y ago
My point was about the video itself, which features prominently on the page. Yes, there are disclaimers on that page. I just think that being up-front with the current state of the system (driver assistance) would be clearer than starting with autonomous driving and then adding a bunch of qualifiers to it. And it seems the German court agrees.

lsh123 6y ago

Audi calls it adaptive cruise control which I find correctly describes what it does.

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
"Adaptive cruise control" sounds like the vechicle is just controlling speed based on the car in front. It does not sound like it implies any type of auto-steering.
- maigret 6y ago
  Yes, this is exactly what this does. "Lane assist" does the steering. I think the good think that Tesla does though, is having a simpler package for all of that. German makers can't keep but making 5 different systems that you can (or not) combine so they can charge more $$$.

Shivetya 6y ago

Considering they now allow use of the interior camera during events there is no reason they cannot expand on that for insuring the driver is paying attention

jariel 6y ago

All of it is too much. It should be called 'Cruise Control Plus'. Or 'Cruise Control Augmentation'. It shouldn't really even hint at autonomy.

FartyMcFarter 6y ago

> The main Autopilot marketing page shows a video of a Tesla driving itself, says the Driver is there for legal purposes only This alone feels like lawsuit-bait. I'm surprised it took this long for the courts to get involved.

natch 6y ago
Feels like, yes, if you go by what the commenter you are replying to said. But read the page for yourself before deciding. It is not as the commenter described.
- mannykannot 6y ago
  If you are claiming that the comment is deceptive, you should point out why we should regard it as such. My objection to this statement is that it is one side of a deeply inconsistent, two-faced message from Tesla. Specifically, the two faces are "it can drive itself - the driver is only there for legal reasons" and "the driver must be attentive and ready to respond to any errors immediately, and is responsible for whatever happens if he does not respond in time."
  - natch 6y ago
    I don't know if the comment is being deceptive. I'd say the commenter is at least confused. And I did point out why. The confusing thing is Elon and Tesla both share a lot of information about timelines for prototype technology. "In six months it will do x" kind of statements. The two faces you are confused by have names. The first face is prototype technology. The second face is shipping cars that we regular consumers can drive. All the confusion can be cleared up by simply asking yourself, for each statement, which of these are they talking about in the current context? Keeping in mind that both prototypes and current shipping cars can appear sometimes in the same context, such as that web page. It takes a bit of discernment and careful reading. If you (general you, not you in particular) are predisposed to assume Elon is a massively deceptive fraudster who is constantly lying and hyping, then it's convenient to overlook that these two faces have a perfectly logical division that fits reality and makes everything consistent. That is what a lot of people do. They overlook the fact that both Elon and Tesla need to lay out their vision for what is coming in the future. When Elon and Tesla talk about this stuff, they often need to talk about prototype technology. They often make it clear when they are doing this. I mean, look at the web page. The words are there. It does say "future" and "current cars don't have this blah blah" (although Elon in his interviews doesn't do as good of a job, it's often obvious with a moment's thought that he's talking about prototypes, to those of us who are familiar with the fact that there will be a multi-year regulatory process before whatever feature he mentions will come out). I guess the problem is that technology is complex. Self driving cars are another level of complex because of the context in which they are situated, amongst other cars and drivers who need to learn to deal with the new robo drivers. Socially complex. Legally complex. Complex environments. Complex timelines. Complex rollouts. Complex technology evolution. You don't just flip a switch with this stuff and turn it on one day, because of the education aspects where other drivers are going to be in the picture. People aren't used to this level of complexity. Elon can't spell all this stuff out in every answer to every interview question. It's up to you to understand this. Average drivers of a Tesla don't need to understand all the complexity. They just need to understand that the current system requires them to be attentive and ready to take over at any time. Tesla makes this abundantly clear in many ways, including on the web site, during the sales process, during delivery, and with active messaging and interventions while driving if the driver does not get it.

PCChris 6y ago

They do say on the same page you linked that "Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous."

amznthrwaway 6y ago
They've also been promising full autonomy for five years straight. The wording of "Current autopilot features" is intended to help deceive the public into thinking that full autonomy is coming next year.
- LoSboccacc 6y ago
  > next year this year https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/07/09/elon-musk-tesla-will-have-level-5-self-driving-cars-this-year/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/07/09/elon-mu...
  - amznthrwaway 6y ago
    2014: in a year https://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6894875/elon-musk-says-next-years-tesla-cars-will-be-able-to-self-drive-90-percent-of-the-time https://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6894875/elon-musk-says-ne... 2015: in two years https://fortune.com/2015/12/21/elon-musk-interview/ https://fortune.com/2015/12/21/elon-musk-interview/ 2016: in a year https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-autonomous-tesla-drive-across-country-by-end-of-2017-2016-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-autonomous-tesla-d... 2017: in two years https://electrek.co/2017/12/08/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-timeline/ https://electrek.co/2017/12/08/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-... 2018: in a year https://electrek.co/2018/03/11/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-self-driving-next-year/ https://electrek.co/2018/03/11/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-self-driv... 2019: in a year https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-full-self-driving-2019-2020-promise/ https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-full-self-drivin...
    - natch 6y ago
      Are you really taking these as promises? Link 1: "will probably" Link 2: "I think" Link 3: "He said he expected…" and "It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available" Link 4: "He predicts" Link 5: "He thinks" Link 6: "I think" And in some of these he's not talking about production cars, but is talking about prototype vehicles in Tesla's development fleet.