6 ms·

> flight crew meticulously accounts for the mass Exactly. I've toyed with the idea of living on a plane or a boat, and the boat is obviously practical and (rel

by FabHK 6y ago

> flight crew meticulously accounts for the mass Exactly. I've toyed with the idea of living on a plane or a boat, and the boat is obviously practical and (relatively) cheap, while the plane (or heli, in this case) is enormously hobbled by the mass constraint. You can find an RV for the road to live in, you can find a boat to live on, but there's no solution at all really in the aviation space unless you go quite big and thus super expensive [1]. Quite some people live on a land or water vehicle, but I don't think anyone realistically lives on an aircraft for an extended time, do they? The 21st century just doesn't deliver... ;-) [1] The price of of boats and planes tends to grow super cubically with length (exponent of maybe 3.5 or so), so twice as long will be 10x expensive (very rough rule of thumb, obviously).

grawprog 6y ago
>but I don't think anyone realistically lives on an aircraft for an extended time, do they? I think one of the big differences between an aircraft and an RV or boat is that an RV and boat don't burn insane amounts of fuel every time you want to move around. I do remember seeing a few airplanes converted into stationary homes over the years in various videos and stuff though.
muttled 6y ago
I've always associated even small boats with great expense. Does living in them reduce the cost since you're not just storing it somewhere, paying for it to float empty in a harbor?
- nicoburns 6y ago
  > Does living in them reduce the cost since you're not just storing it somewhere, paying for it to float empty in a harbor? It massively reduces total life costs, seeing as you're not paying rent. Living on boats is very popular in London for this reason.
  - satori99 6y ago
    I lived on a houseboat in Sydney for a few years. It was by far the cheapest lifestyle I have ever lived in this city, but it is not really lawful as I was on a swing mooring. My fees for the mooring was only a few hundred dollars a year, Live aboard tenants are generally only permitted in serviced marinas, and these get very expensive. I was able to live on my vessel as I was in a small bay off The Georges river which flows into Botany Bay, and not Sydney harbour, where the rules are strictly enforced by authorities. The water police on the river did not care about live aboards, and the local councils are only responsible for land until the high tide mark, so they didn't care either. I once got a letter from some sort of port authority stating that living aboard vessels is not permitted, but it was not an actual enforcement notice. The fact that you are (of course) permitted to visit or use your vessel at any time makes it either difficult, or costly, to prosecute I guess.
  - vidarh 6y ago
    Unless you're moving your boat every couple of weeks you're likely to be paying mooring fees, though, and many places in London mooring fees for a boat with ~20m^2 living space costs more than I pay for a mortgage (in London) for five times that. (though many of the available moorings will be in expensive areas where mortgages certainly would be much higher than mine)
- opwieurposiu 6y ago
  Buying a boat was the worst financial decision I ever made in my life. I now own three of them.
  - Lio 6y ago
    I love this comment so much! :D I did once ask my accountant if I could get away with using a boat as my office and claiming back against tax. He, cough somewhat poo-pooed the idea. Apparently the taxman would require proof that I was only using the boat strictly as an office and should in no way enjoy the experience. Spoil sports.
    - dzhiurgis 6y ago
      It's kinda unfair as you can write off part of your rent, but not part of your liveaboard, even if it's your abode. That said if you live as vagabond and don't have primary residence, wonder if you can get away from paying taxes at all. After all you are not using any countries resources.
- munificent 6y ago
  I'm interested in boating, but haven't gotten into it. I have read a lot, for what that's worth. My impression is that people have the wrong mental model for boat economics and get screwed over because of it. The core problem is that the total cost of ownership for a boat is a small fraction of its purchase price. Also, the incremental cost of owning one even when not using it is relatively high. Think of cars. Let's say you get a little extra cash and you feel like having something fun to drive. You've got some extra space on your driveway. You get, I don't know, a used sports car or a camper van or something. Once you've gotten it, most of the expenditure is done. The insurance is cheap since it's not a daily drive. You've got space for it already. In other words, if you can afford to buy a car, you can probably afford to own a car. Any boat larger than a fishing boat that you can trailer yourself and store in your yard is the polar opposite of that. Boats are actually pretty cheap to buy. There is a huge used market for boats driving prices down. There are many many people looking to not own a boat (which should probably be causing alarm bells to ring in your head). You can often find sailboats for free. The reason is that the cost to own them is quite high. If you keep the boat in the water, you're paying rent at a marina slip. That's expensive in desireable areas. Populated coastal areas are obviously almost always desirable areas. Also, the water and its contents are constantly doing a number on the boat. Barnacles grow on it. The salt corrodes any exposed metal. Sunlight and UV light break down anything plastic. Every day of the boat's life is burning money regardless of whether or not you use the boat. You can store it out of the water, and that helps. But that makes it even harder to take the boat out, so maybe you're not burning as much money every month, but you're also using it even less. This does not mean that boating sucks or is unaffordable. It just means you need to have the right mindset for it. Don't think of a boat as a toy. And object that you can buy and put away when not in use. Think of it more like a pet, like a horse. If you're rich, you can be a horse owner if you want and treat it like a toy. Throw many at it, pay stablehands to take care of the horse when you aren't around, and don't care about the money you're burning even when you aren't riding. If you're not rich, you can also be a happy horse owner. But it has to be your thing. It will be a major part of your life, and occupy a very large slice of your free time. You'll move to the country to make it more affordable. You'll spend time every day taking care of your horse and enjoy the satisfaction of doing the work yourself. You may not have much time for other pursuits, but it will be your horse through and through. I look at boats the same way. You be happy using it a few times a year if you're rich and don't mind throwing money at it. Or you can make it your thing and use it so frequently that the monthly expenses are amortized across a large volume of joyful use. But what you can't do is be a happy casual boat user if you aren't wealthy.
dreen 6y ago
There could be a bunch of airliners for sale due to coronavirus. I suspect the ongoing costs could maybe be similar to renting a large expensive apartment in a centre of a popular US city? Would be super interesting to see someone calculate that though.
- frakt0x90 6y ago
  I work for a giant airline and used to work directly with the maintenance cost data. I only know about the 737 size, but if you want the plane to be able to fly, the plane has to go under a major overhaul every 2 years (plus a slew of other stuff). The cost of those are frequently in the 6-7 figures each depending on the year. If you don't need it to fly, I know there are restaurants made out of 737 shells that operate just fine so the cost should be feasible for a small business level of income.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    > The cost of those are frequently in the 6-7 figures each depending on the year. A NYC penthouse apartment may have similarly high maintenance fees, and cost as much as the 737. https://www.galeriemagazine.com/9-most-expensive-penthouses-new-york-city/ https://www.galeriemagazine.com/9-most-expensive-penthouses-...
rozab 6y ago
> I don't think anyone realistically lives on an aircraft for an extended time, do they? It's an interesting thought. I'd like to believe there's an old bush pilot living out of his Cessna 208 in Australia or something. Now that van life is taking off among the rich, I don't see why this isn't possible.
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
>> Quite some people live on a land or water vehicle, but I don't think anyone realistically lives on an aircraft for an extended time, do they? Not unless they are Robur the Conqueror :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robur_the_Conqueror https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robur_the_Conqueror

by FabHK 6y ago

grawprog 6y ago

>but I don't think anyone realistically lives on an aircraft for an extended time, do they? I think one of the big differences between an aircraft and an RV or boat is that an RV and boat don't burn insane amounts of fuel every time you want to move around. I do remember seeing a few airplanes converted into stationary homes over the years in various videos and stuff though.

muttled 6y ago

I've always associated even small boats with great expense. Does living in them reduce the cost since you're not just storing it somewhere, paying for it to float empty in a harbor?

nicoburns 6y ago
> Does living in them reduce the cost since you're not just storing it somewhere, paying for it to float empty in a harbor? It massively reduces total life costs, seeing as you're not paying rent. Living on boats is very popular in London for this reason.
- satori99 6y ago
  I lived on a houseboat in Sydney for a few years. It was by far the cheapest lifestyle I have ever lived in this city, but it is not really lawful as I was on a swing mooring. My fees for the mooring was only a few hundred dollars a year, Live aboard tenants are generally only permitted in serviced marinas, and these get very expensive. I was able to live on my vessel as I was in a small bay off The Georges river which flows into Botany Bay, and not Sydney harbour, where the rules are strictly enforced by authorities. The water police on the river did not care about live aboards, and the local councils are only responsible for land until the high tide mark, so they didn't care either. I once got a letter from some sort of port authority stating that living aboard vessels is not permitted, but it was not an actual enforcement notice. The fact that you are (of course) permitted to visit or use your vessel at any time makes it either difficult, or costly, to prosecute I guess.
- vidarh 6y ago
  Unless you're moving your boat every couple of weeks you're likely to be paying mooring fees, though, and many places in London mooring fees for a boat with ~20m^2 living space costs more than I pay for a mortgage (in London) for five times that. (though many of the available moorings will be in expensive areas where mortgages certainly would be much higher than mine)
opwieurposiu 6y ago
Buying a boat was the worst financial decision I ever made in my life. I now own three of them.
- Lio 6y ago
  I love this comment so much! :D I did once ask my accountant if I could get away with using a boat as my office and claiming back against tax. He, cough somewhat poo-pooed the idea. Apparently the taxman would require proof that I was only using the boat strictly as an office and should in no way enjoy the experience. Spoil sports.
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    It's kinda unfair as you can write off part of your rent, but not part of your liveaboard, even if it's your abode. That said if you live as vagabond and don't have primary residence, wonder if you can get away from paying taxes at all. After all you are not using any countries resources.
munificent 6y ago
I'm interested in boating, but haven't gotten into it. I have read a lot, for what that's worth. My impression is that people have the wrong mental model for boat economics and get screwed over because of it. The core problem is that the total cost of ownership for a boat is a small fraction of its purchase price. Also, the incremental cost of owning one even when not using it is relatively high. Think of cars. Let's say you get a little extra cash and you feel like having something fun to drive. You've got some extra space on your driveway. You get, I don't know, a used sports car or a camper van or something. Once you've gotten it, most of the expenditure is done. The insurance is cheap since it's not a daily drive. You've got space for it already. In other words, if you can afford to buy a car, you can probably afford to own a car. Any boat larger than a fishing boat that you can trailer yourself and store in your yard is the polar opposite of that. Boats are actually pretty cheap to buy. There is a huge used market for boats driving prices down. There are many many people looking to not own a boat (which should probably be causing alarm bells to ring in your head). You can often find sailboats for free. The reason is that the cost to own them is quite high. If you keep the boat in the water, you're paying rent at a marina slip. That's expensive in desireable areas. Populated coastal areas are obviously almost always desirable areas. Also, the water and its contents are constantly doing a number on the boat. Barnacles grow on it. The salt corrodes any exposed metal. Sunlight and UV light break down anything plastic. Every day of the boat's life is burning money regardless of whether or not you use the boat. You can store it out of the water, and that helps. But that makes it even harder to take the boat out, so maybe you're not burning as much money every month, but you're also using it even less. This does not mean that boating sucks or is unaffordable. It just means you need to have the right mindset for it. Don't think of a boat as a toy. And object that you can buy and put away when not in use. Think of it more like a pet, like a horse. If you're rich, you can be a horse owner if you want and treat it like a toy. Throw many at it, pay stablehands to take care of the horse when you aren't around, and don't care about the money you're burning even when you aren't riding. If you're not rich, you can also be a happy horse owner. But it has to be your thing. It will be a major part of your life, and occupy a very large slice of your free time. You'll move to the country to make it more affordable. You'll spend time every day taking care of your horse and enjoy the satisfaction of doing the work yourself. You may not have much time for other pursuits, but it will be your horse through and through. I look at boats the same way. You be happy using it a few times a year if you're rich and don't mind throwing money at it. Or you can make it your thing and use it so frequently that the monthly expenses are amortized across a large volume of joyful use. But what you can't do is be a happy casual boat user if you aren't wealthy.

dreen 6y ago

There could be a bunch of airliners for sale due to coronavirus. I suspect the ongoing costs could maybe be similar to renting a large expensive apartment in a centre of a popular US city? Would be super interesting to see someone calculate that though.

frakt0x90 6y ago
I work for a giant airline and used to work directly with the maintenance cost data. I only know about the 737 size, but if you want the plane to be able to fly, the plane has to go under a major overhaul every 2 years (plus a slew of other stuff). The cost of those are frequently in the 6-7 figures each depending on the year. If you don't need it to fly, I know there are restaurants made out of 737 shells that operate just fine so the cost should be feasible for a small business level of income.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  > The cost of those are frequently in the 6-7 figures each depending on the year. A NYC penthouse apartment may have similarly high maintenance fees, and cost as much as the 737. https://www.galeriemagazine.com/9-most-expensive-penthouses-new-york-city/ https://www.galeriemagazine.com/9-most-expensive-penthouses-...

rozab 6y ago

> I don't think anyone realistically lives on an aircraft for an extended time, do they? It's an interesting thought. I'd like to believe there's an old bush pilot living out of his Cessna 208 in Australia or something. Now that van life is taking off among the rich, I don't see why this isn't possible.

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

>> Quite some people live on a land or water vehicle, but I don't think anyone realistically lives on an aircraft for an extended time, do they? Not unless they are Robur the Conqueror :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robur_the_Conqueror https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robur_the_Conqueror