5 ms·

Not to start a flame war over book choice but forcing kids to read the Bible, Homer's Iliad, and Shakespeare are probably what is causing such marked disinteres

Not to start a flame war over book choice but forcing kids to read the Bible, Homer's Iliad, and Shakespeare are probably what is causing such marked disinterest in the first place. There are so many interesting and valuable works of writing, fiction and non-fiction, that can captivate and entertain modern children that aren't unapproachable tomes translated from ancient, dead languages, or written in Iambic Pentameter. One of the first plays I read that actually interested me in Theater was Waiting for Godot. Reading The Stranger in high school exposed me to so many new and complex ideas. Even extremely recent books like "Something that May Shock and Discredit You" by Daniel M. Lavery or "Trick Mirror" by Jia Tolentino are fascinating works of the modern American Canon. I'm not Polish but I'm sure there are equally relevant works in Polish. If you think kids just prefer to watch a "movie based on a book" maybe stop making them read boring books that truly lack lots of meaningful relevance to their lives today. And seriously, stop making kids read The Bible as a literary lesson. Nothing made me dis-engage in school like being told "I know you're Jewish and this feels like proselytizing, but I promise, this is purely a lesson in literature, nothing more". That is proven to be a lie when King James's edition is selected over an English translation of the Torah, and when no other non-Christian religious texts are selected for literary evaluation...

mamon 6y ago
>> Not to start a flame war over book choice but forcing kids to read the Bible, Homer's Iliad, and Shakespeare are probably what is causing such marked disinterest in the first place In my experience what's causing young people disintrest in reading is that noone teaches the physical skill of reading correctly. I mean, I never really took any speed-reading courses, but still, when I take a test my speed is usually 400-500 wpm. I read somewhere that typical high school student reads about 100-120 wpm. If I were to read a lenghty book, like any of Dickens of Tolstoy works at that speed I would probably also give up very quickly.
caymanjim 6y ago
Where and when did you go to school such that you were given a Bible to read? I started school in the US in the 1970s and never saw or heard anything more religious than the Pledge of Allegiance or a Christmas decoration.
- q3k 6y ago
  Poland has mandatory Bible reading/analysis at primary school level (4th-6th grade). [1] [1] - “Biblia: stworzenie świata i człowieka oraz wybrane przypowieści ewangeliczne, w tym o siewcy, o talentach, o pannach roztropnych, o miłosiernym Samarytaninie” ( https://isap.sejm.gov.pl/isap.nsf/download.xsp/WDU20170000356/O/D20170356.pdf https://isap.sejm.gov.pl/isap.nsf/download.xsp/WDU2017000035... )
  - cyberdrunk 6y ago
    Yep, I also remember reading and analysing the Hiob story.
  - ceceron 6y ago
    Still, to be fair, those are just short fragments of the Bible. Nobody asks kids to read the whole Bible. Also, at least when I was a child, we read Bible in comparison with other ancient texts. Last but not the least, so many books/poems are inspired by Bible, that's it difficult to understand them without at least glimpsing over the Bible itself.
- zaksoup 6y ago
  Here is the list of school districts in CA alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_districts_in_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_districts_in_Ca... Just because you never experienced Christian propaganda in your public school district in your state doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If your town is mostly religious, mostly Christian, and the oversight mechanisms for something like this happen require a complaint to be filed, who is going to complain? Saying "I never experienced this in my school in the 70s" is about as relevant to somebody else's experience of school in the early naughts as saying "I've never been to a baseball game, so I don't believe baseball actually exists".
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > If your town is mostly religious, mostly Christian, and the oversight mechanisms for something like this happen require a complaint to be filed, who is going to complain? As is the case in many of the landmark freedom-from-religion-in-schools cases, Christians. See, the thing is, America (and even most—but not all, sure—small towns in America) have lots of different flavors of Christianity, and they don't agree on much (especially when you include the JWs and other groups that other Christians view as not-Christian rather than Christians-who-are-in-error). So, typically, sneaking in your brand of Christian propaganda pisses off all the other brands of Christians.
Minor49er 6y ago
The Bible, Homer's Iliad, and Shakespeare's works are some of the most important ones in Western culture. I wouldn't say they're unapproachable at all. They may be more difficult to read than a modern teen fiction novel, but they contain archetypes and language patterns that were foundational for works that came afterward. Thinking about it now, Beowulf should be added to this list. That's another great way to teach students about the evolution of the English language.
- ivanhoe 6y ago
  I hated Shakespeare when I was forced to read it in my language, translation tried to keep the spirit of the language, but really made it just sound archaic and complete incomprehensible to us (high-school kids not really interested in the whole deal). Only many years later, almost by accident, I've discovered how Shakespeare's work was really meant to sound, making the story itself so much more approachable.
  - msclrhd 6y ago
    Is that from the work by David Crystal reconstructing the sound of Shakespeare? It's very interesting to listen to passages read out in that Original Pronunciation. There are several videos of it on YouTube. NativLang also did a video on Shakespeare pronunciation. It's also interesting how the pronunciation is reconstructed. Looking at rhyming pairs that don't currently rhyme (e.g. loved/proved), looking at different accents of English (Irish, Scottish, American, etc.) to identify historic pronunciations, etc.
    - ivanhoe 6y ago
      No, it's a case of much less profound details, for instance I literally had no idea that Shakespeare's works were even meant to rhyme in the original, because the translation that we've read in school didn't rhyme at all. Also the rhythm was completely different and the language was over-complicated by using archaic expressions to try to match Shakespeare's use of English, and so on. Of course, translations are an art form on their own, so perhaps it's a matter of taste also.
Akronymus 6y ago
I can certainly second the sentiment that having to read such titles results in hating reading. When in grades 3-5 I read about 100 (Admittedly easy) books per year on average. After that we had to read books for school and it almost instantly caused me to drop my yearly amount of books to 10 AT MOST. Now that I am out of school I read a lot more again. BTW: Shakespeare wrote plays, not books. So why force children to read it instead of watching it?
- DiabloD3 6y ago
  I was an adult by the time I was shown that his rhymes actually work, and the plays are well constructed and actually funny satires of society. What the fuck, high school. Why? Why?
cyberdrunk 6y ago
> Not to start a flame war over book choice but forcing kids to read the Bible, Homer's Iliad, and Shakespeare are probably what is causing such marked disinterest in the first place. There are so many interesting and valuable works of writing, fiction and non-fiction, that can captivate and entertain modern children that aren't unapproachable tomes translated from ancient, dead languages, or written in Iambic Pentameter. The idea of mandatory novels isn't to entertain and captivate. It is to bring young people into the culture that they will live in, and it's done by studying the culture's roots. Having said that, I felt like a TON of that stuff just flew over my head when I was in school - I mean, literary experts discuss the meaning of for example Mickiewicz's work to this day, and I, a child/teen with no frame of reference, am supposed to get some of it? It would require highly talented teachers to pull this off.
- grugagag 6y ago
  Not only that but also special interest on your part. There are more gentle but effective ways to learn about one's culture. Choosing the hardest is not going to be very productive at all!!

mamon 6y ago

>> Not to start a flame war over book choice but forcing kids to read the Bible, Homer's Iliad, and Shakespeare are probably what is causing such marked disinterest in the first place In my experience what's causing young people disintrest in reading is that noone teaches the physical skill of reading correctly. I mean, I never really took any speed-reading courses, but still, when I take a test my speed is usually 400-500 wpm. I read somewhere that typical high school student reads about 100-120 wpm. If I were to read a lenghty book, like any of Dickens of Tolstoy works at that speed I would probably also give up very quickly.

caymanjim 6y ago

Where and when did you go to school such that you were given a Bible to read? I started school in the US in the 1970s and never saw or heard anything more religious than the Pledge of Allegiance or a Christmas decoration.

q3k 6y ago
Poland has mandatory Bible reading/analysis at primary school level (4th-6th grade). [1] [1] - “Biblia: stworzenie świata i człowieka oraz wybrane przypowieści ewangeliczne, w tym o siewcy, o talentach, o pannach roztropnych, o miłosiernym Samarytaninie” ( https://isap.sejm.gov.pl/isap.nsf/download.xsp/WDU20170000356/O/D20170356.pdf https://isap.sejm.gov.pl/isap.nsf/download.xsp/WDU2017000035... )
- cyberdrunk 6y ago
  Yep, I also remember reading and analysing the Hiob story.
- ceceron 6y ago
  Still, to be fair, those are just short fragments of the Bible. Nobody asks kids to read the whole Bible. Also, at least when I was a child, we read Bible in comparison with other ancient texts. Last but not the least, so many books/poems are inspired by Bible, that's it difficult to understand them without at least glimpsing over the Bible itself.
zaksoup 6y ago
Here is the list of school districts in CA alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_districts_in_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_districts_in_Ca... Just because you never experienced Christian propaganda in your public school district in your state doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If your town is mostly religious, mostly Christian, and the oversight mechanisms for something like this happen require a complaint to be filed, who is going to complain? Saying "I never experienced this in my school in the 70s" is about as relevant to somebody else's experience of school in the early naughts as saying "I've never been to a baseball game, so I don't believe baseball actually exists".
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > If your town is mostly religious, mostly Christian, and the oversight mechanisms for something like this happen require a complaint to be filed, who is going to complain? As is the case in many of the landmark freedom-from-religion-in-schools cases, Christians. See, the thing is, America (and even most—but not all, sure—small towns in America) have lots of different flavors of Christianity, and they don't agree on much (especially when you include the JWs and other groups that other Christians view as not-Christian rather than Christians-who-are-in-error). So, typically, sneaking in your brand of Christian propaganda pisses off all the other brands of Christians.

Minor49er 6y ago

The Bible, Homer's Iliad, and Shakespeare's works are some of the most important ones in Western culture. I wouldn't say they're unapproachable at all. They may be more difficult to read than a modern teen fiction novel, but they contain archetypes and language patterns that were foundational for works that came afterward. Thinking about it now, Beowulf should be added to this list. That's another great way to teach students about the evolution of the English language.

ivanhoe 6y ago
I hated Shakespeare when I was forced to read it in my language, translation tried to keep the spirit of the language, but really made it just sound archaic and complete incomprehensible to us (high-school kids not really interested in the whole deal). Only many years later, almost by accident, I've discovered how Shakespeare's work was really meant to sound, making the story itself so much more approachable.
- msclrhd 6y ago
  Is that from the work by David Crystal reconstructing the sound of Shakespeare? It's very interesting to listen to passages read out in that Original Pronunciation. There are several videos of it on YouTube. NativLang also did a video on Shakespeare pronunciation. It's also interesting how the pronunciation is reconstructed. Looking at rhyming pairs that don't currently rhyme (e.g. loved/proved), looking at different accents of English (Irish, Scottish, American, etc.) to identify historic pronunciations, etc.
  - ivanhoe 6y ago
    No, it's a case of much less profound details, for instance I literally had no idea that Shakespeare's works were even meant to rhyme in the original, because the translation that we've read in school didn't rhyme at all. Also the rhythm was completely different and the language was over-complicated by using archaic expressions to try to match Shakespeare's use of English, and so on. Of course, translations are an art form on their own, so perhaps it's a matter of taste also.

Akronymus 6y ago

I can certainly second the sentiment that having to read such titles results in hating reading. When in grades 3-5 I read about 100 (Admittedly easy) books per year on average. After that we had to read books for school and it almost instantly caused me to drop my yearly amount of books to 10 AT MOST. Now that I am out of school I read a lot more again. BTW: Shakespeare wrote plays, not books. So why force children to read it instead of watching it?

DiabloD3 6y ago
I was an adult by the time I was shown that his rhymes actually work, and the plays are well constructed and actually funny satires of society. What the fuck, high school. Why? Why?

cyberdrunk 6y ago

> Not to start a flame war over book choice but forcing kids to read the Bible, Homer's Iliad, and Shakespeare are probably what is causing such marked disinterest in the first place. There are so many interesting and valuable works of writing, fiction and non-fiction, that can captivate and entertain modern children that aren't unapproachable tomes translated from ancient, dead languages, or written in Iambic Pentameter. The idea of mandatory novels isn't to entertain and captivate. It is to bring young people into the culture that they will live in, and it's done by studying the culture's roots. Having said that, I felt like a TON of that stuff just flew over my head when I was in school - I mean, literary experts discuss the meaning of for example Mickiewicz's work to this day, and I, a child/teen with no frame of reference, am supposed to get some of it? It would require highly talented teachers to pull this off.

grugagag 6y ago
Not only that but also special interest on your part. There are more gentle but effective ways to learn about one's culture. Choosing the hardest is not going to be very productive at all!!