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You're missing one of the largest risk vectors in the whole 5G game. 5G operates on higher frequency and requires a larger density of base stations. If you can

You're missing one of the largest risk vectors in the whole 5G game. 5G operates on higher frequency and requires a larger density of base stations. If you can identify individual devices -- even without cracking the encryption they use -- then you can track them them geographically, and also conduct traffic analysis. 5G presents a potential security risk because it allows far greater granularity of device localization, even without GPS.

Waterfall 6y ago
I don't know if I want 5G. It sounds like wimax but faster. I don't think it gives that much benefit, triangulation already was able to bomb a terrorist in Russia in the 90s. How much worst could it get?
- totalZero 6y ago
  My understanding is that the difference between 5G density/localization and that of previous technologies is quite substantial, especially in urban areas. "The extension of spectrum range has an impact on the network architecture. mmwave cells will employ shorter ranges of around 100-to-200 meters which will require extreme densification to provide high coverage. 3G networks reached densities of fourto- five base stations per km², 4G networks eight-to-ten per km², while 5G networks could reach densities of 40-to-50 per km²." https://www.newtec.eu/article/article/choosing-the-right-connectivity-for-5g https://www.newtec.eu/article/article/choosing-the-right-con...
  - Waterfall 6y ago
    I'm wondering how much worst it is since we already can track people pretty well with cellular data now. Sorry if I didn't make that clear, seems like they can already do all those things. How much worst can it be?
    - gruez 6y ago
      Its the difference between knowing which neighborhood you're in and which street or mabye even which house you're in.
      - Waterfall 6y ago
        But you can already tell what house you're in with triangulation, and even the room.
        gruez 6y ago
        Source on this? Maybe you can do it if it's combined with wifi/bluetooth signals, but I doubt you can do it with cell towers alone.
        Waterfall 6y ago
        Yes you can. I used a jailbreak app on ios6 and I used llama on Android for this. >The average for Boston is 21 meters; New York 27 meters; Austin, TX, 28 meters; Washington 29 meters, and Chicago 38 meters. https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/research/22928.html https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/re... I got my own room in my house with it, back in the 3G/4G days. I'm not sure what modern software and hardware can do it now, but I'm pretty sure it's even more accurate even without 5G.
        gruez 6y ago
        >https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/re.. https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/re.... >The average for Boston is 21 meters; New York 27 meters; Austin, TX, 28 meters; Washington 29 meters, and Chicago 38 meters. >A number of factors can impact location data accuracy, including its source, which can include GPS signals, Wi-Fi and cell tower triangulation. Seems like the figures they're giving is with wifi/gps signals, not just cell tower alone.
        Waterfall 6y ago
opless 6y ago
> 5G operates on higher frequency and requires a larger density of base stations No that’s not required, 5G uses the same old frequencies as 2/3/4G for the bulk of the traffic, it only uses the >1Ghz frequencies for microcells in malls and other dense areas where appropriate.
- mattmanser 6y ago
  I assume in order to be able to decide to serve those 1Ghz frequencies, all the phones are going to ping the local towers regardless, so it doesn't matter.
  - opless 6y ago
    That'll no doubt be down to the configuration of the terminal device. It'll likely only TX on the available bands allowed in the devices home region for licensing/compliance issues. Back on the tracking side of things... AFAIKR 3G and above do not leak their IMEI/IMSI unencrypted. Of course nearly zero phones show or warn if encryption is used or not (though I think that's a setting in the SIM card).
- totalZero 6y ago
  > 5G uses the same old frequencies as 2/3/4G for the bulk of the traffic, it only uses the >1Ghz frequencies for microcells in malls and other dense areas where appropriate. That's simply not true. 5G cannot achieve its advanced speeds without higher frequencies, which cannot be deployed without greater density of base stations. Higher frequencies beget faster signal falloff and greater susceptibility to obstruction. "5G needs spectrum across low, mid and high spectrum ranges to deliver widespread coverage and support all use cases. All three have important roles to play." [1] Microcells use high-band, not mid-band, spectrum. High-band may not be useful outside of dense areas because of its reduced range, but it is essential to 5G and the FCC is releasing about 5GHz of spectrum for this purpose. Mid-band (1GHz-6GHz) is the bread and butter of 5G, and the FCC has pushed to open this part of the spectrum as much as possible for 5G to work as intended. This part of the spectrum is the most versatile, but it is in short supply [2]. Part of the challenge of 5G involves more frequent handoffs between base stations versus past generations of mobile phone radio. Similarly, 5G devices use various mitigation techniques to deal with interference from nearby base stations. For both of these reasons, there is a substantial amount of interaction between a single handset and nearby base stations that may not be presently serving it. [1] https://www.gsma.com/spectrum/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/5G-Spectrum-Positions.pdf https://www.gsma.com/spectrum/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/5G-... [2] https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-363622A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-363622A1.pdf

Waterfall 6y ago

I don't know if I want 5G. It sounds like wimax but faster. I don't think it gives that much benefit, triangulation already was able to bomb a terrorist in Russia in the 90s. How much worst could it get?

totalZero 6y ago
My understanding is that the difference between 5G density/localization and that of previous technologies is quite substantial, especially in urban areas. "The extension of spectrum range has an impact on the network architecture. mmwave cells will employ shorter ranges of around 100-to-200 meters which will require extreme densification to provide high coverage. 3G networks reached densities of fourto- five base stations per km², 4G networks eight-to-ten per km², while 5G networks could reach densities of 40-to-50 per km²." https://www.newtec.eu/article/article/choosing-the-right-connectivity-for-5g https://www.newtec.eu/article/article/choosing-the-right-con...
- Waterfall 6y ago
  I'm wondering how much worst it is since we already can track people pretty well with cellular data now. Sorry if I didn't make that clear, seems like they can already do all those things. How much worst can it be?
  - gruez 6y ago
    Its the difference between knowing which neighborhood you're in and which street or mabye even which house you're in.
    - Waterfall 6y ago
      But you can already tell what house you're in with triangulation, and even the room.
      - gruez 6y ago
        Source on this? Maybe you can do it if it's combined with wifi/bluetooth signals, but I doubt you can do it with cell towers alone.
        Waterfall 6y ago
        Yes you can. I used a jailbreak app on ios6 and I used llama on Android for this. >The average for Boston is 21 meters; New York 27 meters; Austin, TX, 28 meters; Washington 29 meters, and Chicago 38 meters. https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/research/22928.html https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/re... I got my own room in my house with it, back in the 3G/4G days. I'm not sure what modern software and hardware can do it now, but I'm pretty sure it's even more accurate even without 5G.
        gruez 6y ago
        >https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/re.. https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/news/re.... >The average for Boston is 21 meters; New York 27 meters; Austin, TX, 28 meters; Washington 29 meters, and Chicago 38 meters. >A number of factors can impact location data accuracy, including its source, which can include GPS signals, Wi-Fi and cell tower triangulation. Seems like the figures they're giving is with wifi/gps signals, not just cell tower alone.
        Waterfall 6y ago

opless 6y ago

> 5G operates on higher frequency and requires a larger density of base stations No that’s not required, 5G uses the same old frequencies as 2/3/4G for the bulk of the traffic, it only uses the >1Ghz frequencies for microcells in malls and other dense areas where appropriate.

mattmanser 6y ago
I assume in order to be able to decide to serve those 1Ghz frequencies, all the phones are going to ping the local towers regardless, so it doesn't matter.
- opless 6y ago
  That'll no doubt be down to the configuration of the terminal device. It'll likely only TX on the available bands allowed in the devices home region for licensing/compliance issues. Back on the tracking side of things... AFAIKR 3G and above do not leak their IMEI/IMSI unencrypted. Of course nearly zero phones show or warn if encryption is used or not (though I think that's a setting in the SIM card).
totalZero 6y ago
> 5G uses the same old frequencies as 2/3/4G for the bulk of the traffic, it only uses the >1Ghz frequencies for microcells in malls and other dense areas where appropriate. That's simply not true. 5G cannot achieve its advanced speeds without higher frequencies, which cannot be deployed without greater density of base stations. Higher frequencies beget faster signal falloff and greater susceptibility to obstruction. "5G needs spectrum across low, mid and high spectrum ranges to deliver widespread coverage and support all use cases. All three have important roles to play." [1] Microcells use high-band, not mid-band, spectrum. High-band may not be useful outside of dense areas because of its reduced range, but it is essential to 5G and the FCC is releasing about 5GHz of spectrum for this purpose. Mid-band (1GHz-6GHz) is the bread and butter of 5G, and the FCC has pushed to open this part of the spectrum as much as possible for 5G to work as intended. This part of the spectrum is the most versatile, but it is in short supply [2]. Part of the challenge of 5G involves more frequent handoffs between base stations versus past generations of mobile phone radio. Similarly, 5G devices use various mitigation techniques to deal with interference from nearby base stations. For both of these reasons, there is a substantial amount of interaction between a single handset and nearby base stations that may not be presently serving it. [1] https://www.gsma.com/spectrum/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/5G-Spectrum-Positions.pdf https://www.gsma.com/spectrum/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/5G-... [2] https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-363622A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-363622A1.pdf