4 ms·

Paying for the history of an item instead of its practical properties is incomprehensible to me. It is peak human ridiculousness. Just like a lot of "art".

deelly 6y ago
So, basically you hate any emotions?
- enkid 6y ago
  Are all of your emotions tied to consumer goods?
- Traubenfuchs 6y ago
  No. But I don't understand why a perfectly replicated painting by an art student is worth less than the aged original, I don't understand why new music instruments that sound better or equal are worth less than their antique counterparts. No one can tell the difference, besides by using techniques like a ledger or scientific analysis. Both can be easily tricked by anyone involved. This means your perception of those items is strongly colored by completely external "facts" (rather, assumptions based on your trust into experts, at best). We could show the countless tourists that want to see her a replicated Mona Lisa and no one would ever be able to tell. Yet if we'd tell them there'd be at least a small outroar. All of this is really off putting. Reminds me of placebo. And being emotionally invested in sports teams.
  - jhayward 6y ago
    > But I don't understand why a perfectly replicated painting by an art student is worth less than the aged original I would suggest that this is because you place no value on the act of creation, the creative genius that pulls the artifact out of thin air into the material world. The view you are describing is purely utilitarian. The counterfeiter is stealing that creative value, without which the artifact they are manufacturing isn’t possible.
libertine 6y ago
Oh but you did it, you do it, and you will continue to do it through out your life, even if you're unconscious of it. Brands have history, and we're emotionally tied to it. It's how we work, it's how part of our decision making process works and it's quite efficient. Even if your argument will be : "NONSENSE! I only buy reliable items that perform their practical duties with their practical properties." I'm pretty sure those items are tied to a brand that worked hard to own the title of having reliable items that perform how they are supposed to perform. Collectibles is just another form of having a piece of that. Can be fueled by nostalgia, or something practical like a specific sound or texture, could be a story you relate to, etc.
- Traubenfuchs 6y ago
  No one is safe from that. We are getting manipulated everywhere and might end up buying an item (washing machine, car...) that's objectively a worse fit for us. But isn't this something bad? Something we should avoid, rather than encourage? People throwing money at collectors item are relishing this. But while writing this I did some introspection and realized that I would also buy all the name & brand based expensive stuff there is if I had the money for it. So my negative feelings are probably just jealousy at this (from my perspective) frivolous waste of money. So, nevermind. (-;
  - libertine 6y ago
    >We are getting manipulated everywhere and might end up buying an item (washing machine, car...) that's objectively a worse fit for us. But isn't this something bad? From my experience, it's bad if exploited but there's little benefits of lying to/tricking people and defraud their expectations. In fact I'm pretty sure you (and I, and everyone) have plenty of brands that destroyed our trust in them and we would NEVER buy from them again - either because you had bad customer service, or they wasted your time to deliver a bad product/experience... so it's not a good practice to manipulate and lie to people, it will only work in the short term, but it does happen. We don't do well we betrayal. But for example, for fine art collection, people can do it simply because they like and artist body of work and see value in it, others because it would fit their collection (because they might be trying to get a slice of a specific artistic movement), others because they believe it's where art is moving to (represents a form a progress), other because their art dealer told them it's a good investment and the artist is growing in specific circles... I've been trying to help an artist with marketing, and it's not easy at all. It may sound like non-sense, but fine art should be more present in our lives, and surround us, even if it's for something as simple as "I like this paint"!
mikorym 6y ago
Let me give you my perspective on the matter. Art connects us with history. If we don't have a conscious stream going back to the Greek mathematicians such as Archimedes and Erastosthenes, how do we know they existed? In this case we actually don't have a nice conscious stream because of a little event called the fall of Rome and the dark ages. But the artifacts are as real a connection to early history as my school books with my writing are to my own early history, or yours. Anything connecting us directly to the Renaissance is inherently valuable, as is the Romantic era, or early industrial history. I value van Gogh for it's place in history, and for the fact that anything in the painting has to be from that date. If you do some kind of verification, you should see that the green pigment has to be the one that they used at that time, and may possibly look a bit faded to a more yellowy colour. Red pigment will probably be somewhat poisonous and blue may well be from a particular plant with a particular name. (IANAAH.) Going to the Renaissance is of course more complicated than going to van Gogh, going to the dark ages is more so, and even more so going back to Greece. The same holds for any civilisations such as the Maya, ancient China, Mesopotamia, and so forth. We are connected to the San only through very few artifacts and often they are too generic to know. We are but limited to paintings on overhanging rock faces. The money value is another argument, but if I had the money, I would buy a piece of history for $1m in the same way that I would buy a Fazioli or a Bosendorfer (the one with the octave lower, of course) for some $200k, new or old.
coolgeek 6y ago
It's not just the history. It's the same thing with any collectables - first edition books, baseball cards, Star Wars toys... Some person (or group of persons) crafted this thing. Some small subset of the original purchasers valued the thing enough to preserve it. In almost any situation, given freedom from financial constraints and all other factors being equal, anybody is going to choose the original thing over the reproduction.

deelly 6y ago

So, basically you hate any emotions?

enkid 6y ago
Are all of your emotions tied to consumer goods?
Traubenfuchs 6y ago
No. But I don't understand why a perfectly replicated painting by an art student is worth less than the aged original, I don't understand why new music instruments that sound better or equal are worth less than their antique counterparts. No one can tell the difference, besides by using techniques like a ledger or scientific analysis. Both can be easily tricked by anyone involved. This means your perception of those items is strongly colored by completely external "facts" (rather, assumptions based on your trust into experts, at best). We could show the countless tourists that want to see her a replicated Mona Lisa and no one would ever be able to tell. Yet if we'd tell them there'd be at least a small outroar. All of this is really off putting. Reminds me of placebo. And being emotionally invested in sports teams.
- jhayward 6y ago
  > But I don't understand why a perfectly replicated painting by an art student is worth less than the aged original I would suggest that this is because you place no value on the act of creation, the creative genius that pulls the artifact out of thin air into the material world. The view you are describing is purely utilitarian. The counterfeiter is stealing that creative value, without which the artifact they are manufacturing isn’t possible.

libertine 6y ago

Oh but you did it, you do it, and you will continue to do it through out your life, even if you're unconscious of it. Brands have history, and we're emotionally tied to it. It's how we work, it's how part of our decision making process works and it's quite efficient. Even if your argument will be : "NONSENSE! I only buy reliable items that perform their practical duties with their practical properties." I'm pretty sure those items are tied to a brand that worked hard to own the title of having reliable items that perform how they are supposed to perform. Collectibles is just another form of having a piece of that. Can be fueled by nostalgia, or something practical like a specific sound or texture, could be a story you relate to, etc.

Traubenfuchs 6y ago
No one is safe from that. We are getting manipulated everywhere and might end up buying an item (washing machine, car...) that's objectively a worse fit for us. But isn't this something bad? Something we should avoid, rather than encourage? People throwing money at collectors item are relishing this. But while writing this I did some introspection and realized that I would also buy all the name & brand based expensive stuff there is if I had the money for it. So my negative feelings are probably just jealousy at this (from my perspective) frivolous waste of money. So, nevermind. (-;
- libertine 6y ago
  >We are getting manipulated everywhere and might end up buying an item (washing machine, car...) that's objectively a worse fit for us. But isn't this something bad? From my experience, it's bad if exploited but there's little benefits of lying to/tricking people and defraud their expectations. In fact I'm pretty sure you (and I, and everyone) have plenty of brands that destroyed our trust in them and we would NEVER buy from them again - either because you had bad customer service, or they wasted your time to deliver a bad product/experience... so it's not a good practice to manipulate and lie to people, it will only work in the short term, but it does happen. We don't do well we betrayal. But for example, for fine art collection, people can do it simply because they like and artist body of work and see value in it, others because it would fit their collection (because they might be trying to get a slice of a specific artistic movement), others because they believe it's where art is moving to (represents a form a progress), other because their art dealer told them it's a good investment and the artist is growing in specific circles... I've been trying to help an artist with marketing, and it's not easy at all. It may sound like non-sense, but fine art should be more present in our lives, and surround us, even if it's for something as simple as "I like this paint"!

mikorym 6y ago

Let me give you my perspective on the matter. Art connects us with history. If we don't have a conscious stream going back to the Greek mathematicians such as Archimedes and Erastosthenes, how do we know they existed? In this case we actually don't have a nice conscious stream because of a little event called the fall of Rome and the dark ages. But the artifacts are as real a connection to early history as my school books with my writing are to my own early history, or yours. Anything connecting us directly to the Renaissance is inherently valuable, as is the Romantic era, or early industrial history. I value van Gogh for it's place in history, and for the fact that anything in the painting has to be from that date. If you do some kind of verification, you should see that the green pigment has to be the one that they used at that time, and may possibly look a bit faded to a more yellowy colour. Red pigment will probably be somewhat poisonous and blue may well be from a particular plant with a particular name. (IANAAH.) Going to the Renaissance is of course more complicated than going to van Gogh, going to the dark ages is more so, and even more so going back to Greece. The same holds for any civilisations such as the Maya, ancient China, Mesopotamia, and so forth. We are connected to the San only through very few artifacts and often they are too generic to know. We are but limited to paintings on overhanging rock faces. The money value is another argument, but if I had the money, I would buy a piece of history for $1m in the same way that I would buy a Fazioli or a Bosendorfer (the one with the octave lower, of course) for some $200k, new or old.

coolgeek 6y ago

It's not just the history. It's the same thing with any collectables - first edition books, baseball cards, Star Wars toys... Some person (or group of persons) crafted this thing. Some small subset of the original purchasers valued the thing enough to preserve it. In almost any situation, given freedom from financial constraints and all other factors being equal, anybody is going to choose the original thing over the reproduction.