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How Late Zhou China Reverse-Engineered a Civilization

90 points by saadalem 6y ago

bencollier49 6y ago
Could one not argue that the Renaissance was Europe reverse-engineering the Roman and Greek civilisations? As per this article's main conceit.
- akimball 6y ago
  As has been argued many times. There have been several important revivals of classical mediterranean patterns. A relatively recent one which stands out is the "Third Reich". US federal style is another example.
  - bencollier49 6y ago
    Well quite. My point was that this article presents the Chinese experience as unique, which it is not.
Waterfall 6y ago
I recommend Han Feizi for anyone interested. >Confucius died thinking himself a failure. He didn’t manage to get a ruler to adopt his solution long enough for a full-scale test. Though he was able to gain the ears of a few statesmen, he lost political fights to other advisers and so fell from favor. No he didn't. He, Buddha and Socrates were around the same era. I believe it's called the axial age. Socrates and him both were not well regarded in their times and knew that they both would be more well liked after their deaths. I've read that they both thought their time would come later. I don't understand why they said he thought himself a failure. Nobody who travels around believing these philosophical ideas can feel themselves a failure and continue to hold these philosophical ideas.
bigpumpkin 6y ago
That the mohists became so irrelevant in later dynasties was in my opinion a great loss. They were among the earliest universal consequentialists and great siege engineers. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism
- smitty1110 6y ago
  The problem with Mohists was the fanatical level of utilitarianism in the philosophy. Art is a waste, if you have time for art you have time to do something productive. Music is a waste, both in producing instruments and wasting time. People chafe under such strict precepts, like with the Legalists.
- R0b0t1 6y ago
  The way it contrasts to Confucianism is very interesting. It seems like they were trying to break cycles of clan based violence in addition to being very utilitarian.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- contingencies 6y ago
  See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Names There are only two hard problems in civilization: accounting, dynastic change and naming things.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    Confucious says: There are only three hard problems in civilization: accounting, dynastic change, naming things and identifying hard problems.
- earthboundkid 6y ago
  Yes, it’s a real shame that China was the world leader in civilization, government, science, arts, and literature for only 2,000 years. If it weren’t for those damn Confucians, I’m sure they would have gotten in an extra couple of hundred years.
- Symmetry 6y ago
  My understanding is that to make an effective movement based on benevolence you need to be able to draw a line and say, "OK, if you do this much you're a good enough person and while more would be better we're not going to give you flak for not doing more." And the Mohists failed to succeed at doing this and had a purity spiral that wiped them out. Something we Effective Altruists have to bear in mind.
Johnwbh 6y ago
Interesting. One of the things that ancient China had that other comparable civilizations didn't was an intellectual culture that transcended the political divisions of the time. Which allowed for a lot of innovation, and spreading of knowledge. Closest thing in Europe before the modern time is maybe late Rome, but it was fairly centralized, which made it harder for innovations to spread and take hold. Whereas ancient China had power spread out much more, even when it was notionally ruled by a single dynasty
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  But regime change often means history is changed. Some Chinese dynasties did their best to erase the history of their former challengers. I ran into this idea when researching the history of tea. It can be easily traced back until you reach a point in the time-line where a god-like dynasty founder made tea sua sponte. Prior history having been deliberately erased by the proponents of the anointed inventor of tea made it impossible to research further, even though there would have been written records otherwise.
  - JasonCEC 6y ago
    That is not correct; I believe the "god-like dynasty founder" you're referring to is Shennong, the mythical 2nd emperor of Chine who is said to have invented tea, medicine and government[0]. If so, there is (obviously) no historical evidence of his existence. On the other hand, the history of tea is well understood. Tea originated in Yunnan province and was used by the local minority groups along the Lancang river (the headwaters of the Mekong) as a masicient, chewed like coca leaf in the Andes and Holly in North America, for its stimulating properties. Before the Tang Dynasty, tea was a medicinal herb, part of the broader group of herbs used as a medicine by the wondering mendicants of Southern China, who spread its use throughout the southern provenances. Tea became a regional drink pre-Tang, but didn't begin to spread throughout China until the introduction of Buddhism and its adoption into the Buddhist practice as part of the Chinese temperance movement (used in place of alcohol). Most of the myths around tea originated with Lu Yu[1] a real historical figure who wrote "Cha Jing" or Tea Bible during the Tang - working outside the widely accepted historical texts, he attributed any nebulous mention of medicinal herb (then called "Tu" in classical Chinese) to the tea plant and built up a corpus of mythologies and stories around the new plant (as a type of promotion), including the addition of tea to the older existing myth of Shennong. Anyway - that is all to say: the history of tea is also the story of the spread of Chan Buddhism and its (inconsistent) anti-alcohol temperance moment from a niche herb in Southern China to one of the largest agricultural commodities today. I'd recommend "Tea In China: A Religous And Cultural History by James A. Benn"[2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shennong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shennong [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Yu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Yu [2] https://uhpress.hawaii.edu/title/tea-in-china-a-religious-and-cultural-history/ https://uhpress.hawaii.edu/title/tea-in-china-a-religious-an...
Merrill 6y ago
Chinese Thought: Ancient Wisdom Meets Modern Science - Part 1 https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.1x+3T2018/course/ https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.1x+3... Chinese Thought: Ancient Wisdom Meets Modern Science - Part 2 https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.2x+3T2018/course/ https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.2x+3... Excellent course.
enitihas 6y ago
Ancient China has a very fascinating history. I think the world would be very different if the voyages started under the Prince of Yan would have been allowed to continue. China would have discovered the new world before Europe, and history would be drastically different. They really had impressive boats very early on.
fspeech 6y ago
托古 or "attributing to the ancients" was a standard technique used by Chinese writers arguing for their positions, likely appealing to the tradition of ancestry worship. So we really can't take the claim of reverse engineering from the Zhou at its face value. It's more likely that the many schools of thoughts were original to the time, stimulated by the intense competition among the multitude of states.
- Symmetry 6y ago
  The European Renaissance was very similar with lots of actual innovations being ascribed to the wisdom of the ancient Romans or Greeks.

90 points by saadalem 6y ago

Could one not argue that the Renaissance was Europe reverse-engineering the Roman and Greek civilisations? As per this article's main conceit.

akimball 6y ago
As has been argued many times. There have been several important revivals of classical mediterranean patterns. A relatively recent one which stands out is the "Third Reich". US federal style is another example.
- bencollier49 6y ago
  Well quite. My point was that this article presents the Chinese experience as unique, which it is not.

Waterfall 6y ago

I recommend Han Feizi for anyone interested. >Confucius died thinking himself a failure. He didn’t manage to get a ruler to adopt his solution long enough for a full-scale test. Though he was able to gain the ears of a few statesmen, he lost political fights to other advisers and so fell from favor. No he didn't. He, Buddha and Socrates were around the same era. I believe it's called the axial age. Socrates and him both were not well regarded in their times and knew that they both would be more well liked after their deaths. I've read that they both thought their time would come later. I don't understand why they said he thought himself a failure. Nobody who travels around believing these philosophical ideas can feel themselves a failure and continue to hold these philosophical ideas.

bigpumpkin 6y ago

That the mohists became so irrelevant in later dynasties was in my opinion a great loss. They were among the earliest universal consequentialists and great siege engineers. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism

smitty1110 6y ago
The problem with Mohists was the fanatical level of utilitarianism in the philosophy. Art is a waste, if you have time for art you have time to do something productive. Music is a waste, both in producing instruments and wasting time. People chafe under such strict precepts, like with the Legalists.
R0b0t1 6y ago
The way it contrasts to Confucianism is very interesting. It seems like they were trying to break cycles of clan based violence in addition to being very utilitarian.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
contingencies 6y ago
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Names There are only two hard problems in civilization: accounting, dynastic change and naming things.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  Confucious says: There are only three hard problems in civilization: accounting, dynastic change, naming things and identifying hard problems.
earthboundkid 6y ago
Yes, it’s a real shame that China was the world leader in civilization, government, science, arts, and literature for only 2,000 years. If it weren’t for those damn Confucians, I’m sure they would have gotten in an extra couple of hundred years.
Symmetry 6y ago
My understanding is that to make an effective movement based on benevolence you need to be able to draw a line and say, "OK, if you do this much you're a good enough person and while more would be better we're not going to give you flak for not doing more." And the Mohists failed to succeed at doing this and had a purity spiral that wiped them out. Something we Effective Altruists have to bear in mind.

Johnwbh 6y ago

Interesting. One of the things that ancient China had that other comparable civilizations didn't was an intellectual culture that transcended the political divisions of the time. Which allowed for a lot of innovation, and spreading of knowledge. Closest thing in Europe before the modern time is maybe late Rome, but it was fairly centralized, which made it harder for innovations to spread and take hold. Whereas ancient China had power spread out much more, even when it was notionally ruled by a single dynasty

pnw_hazor 6y ago
But regime change often means history is changed. Some Chinese dynasties did their best to erase the history of their former challengers. I ran into this idea when researching the history of tea. It can be easily traced back until you reach a point in the time-line where a god-like dynasty founder made tea sua sponte. Prior history having been deliberately erased by the proponents of the anointed inventor of tea made it impossible to research further, even though there would have been written records otherwise.
- JasonCEC 6y ago
  That is not correct; I believe the "god-like dynasty founder" you're referring to is Shennong, the mythical 2nd emperor of Chine who is said to have invented tea, medicine and government[0]. If so, there is (obviously) no historical evidence of his existence. On the other hand, the history of tea is well understood. Tea originated in Yunnan province and was used by the local minority groups along the Lancang river (the headwaters of the Mekong) as a masicient, chewed like coca leaf in the Andes and Holly in North America, for its stimulating properties. Before the Tang Dynasty, tea was a medicinal herb, part of the broader group of herbs used as a medicine by the wondering mendicants of Southern China, who spread its use throughout the southern provenances. Tea became a regional drink pre-Tang, but didn't begin to spread throughout China until the introduction of Buddhism and its adoption into the Buddhist practice as part of the Chinese temperance movement (used in place of alcohol). Most of the myths around tea originated with Lu Yu[1] a real historical figure who wrote "Cha Jing" or Tea Bible during the Tang - working outside the widely accepted historical texts, he attributed any nebulous mention of medicinal herb (then called "Tu" in classical Chinese) to the tea plant and built up a corpus of mythologies and stories around the new plant (as a type of promotion), including the addition of tea to the older existing myth of Shennong. Anyway - that is all to say: the history of tea is also the story of the spread of Chan Buddhism and its (inconsistent) anti-alcohol temperance moment from a niche herb in Southern China to one of the largest agricultural commodities today. I'd recommend "Tea In China: A Religous And Cultural History by James A. Benn"[2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shennong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shennong [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Yu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Yu [2] https://uhpress.hawaii.edu/title/tea-in-china-a-religious-and-cultural-history/ https://uhpress.hawaii.edu/title/tea-in-china-a-religious-an...

Merrill 6y ago

Chinese Thought: Ancient Wisdom Meets Modern Science - Part 1 https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.1x+3T2018/course/ https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.1x+3... Chinese Thought: Ancient Wisdom Meets Modern Science - Part 2 https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.2x+3T2018/course/ https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:UBCx+China300.2x+3... Excellent course.

enitihas 6y ago

Ancient China has a very fascinating history. I think the world would be very different if the voyages started under the Prince of Yan would have been allowed to continue. China would have discovered the new world before Europe, and history would be drastically different. They really had impressive boats very early on.

fspeech 6y ago

托古 or "attributing to the ancients" was a standard technique used by Chinese writers arguing for their positions, likely appealing to the tradition of ancestry worship. So we really can't take the claim of reverse engineering from the Zhou at its face value. It's more likely that the many schools of thoughts were original to the time, stimulated by the intense competition among the multitude of states.

Symmetry 6y ago
The European Renaissance was very similar with lots of actual innovations being ascribed to the wisdom of the ancient Romans or Greeks.