9 ms·
Porsche found a way to 3D-print lightweight pistons that add more horsepower
- dkdk8283 6y agoSeems like a nice PR piece. Porsche is using 3d printing to drive tooling development to cut new shapes on pistons. Awesome for r&d but 3d printing metallurgy has a long way to go before it’s production ready. > and feature an integrated and closed cooling duct in the piston crown that's apparently unable to be reproduced using traditional manufacturing methods
- stanfordkid 6y agoSurely they are innovating on the printing techniques themselves beyond off the shelf stuff (or having partnerships with the makers of the equipment). If they can get the process reproducible and consistency up, I don't see why it couldn't be productionized
- abeppu 6y agoMy limited understanding is that metal parts made by additive processes can end up with poorer lifespans than forged or machined parts. You get different layers which melted and cooled at different times, with weird residual stresses. Parts can fail sooner and just be weaker. If your prototype only needs to live long enough for you to iterate on it, that might be great. But it might not be suitable for real world use for an extended period?
- Swizec 6y agoSupercars aren’t exactly known for their reliability. I imagine Porsche would use this on their super and hyper cars first.
- g8oz 6y agoI’ve read that Rolls Royce is going to be using 3D metal printing on their upcoming Advance3 engine. If it’s good enough for those operating conditions then it should be good enough for anything.
- thrwy_01 6y agoPowdered metal camshaft lobes have been in wide use in production vehicles for several decades.
- culturestate 6y agoPowdered metal parts are everywhere today, but it's not really an additive process - you pour a bunch of powder into a mold, compact it, and then bake it. PM parts are also porous and fairly weak (in some dimensions) relative to machined counterparts, so you don't typically see them in critical applications.
- ip26 6y agoYeah, now that you mention it, camshafts have quite a reputation for fragility. I always wondered how a rod of solid steel could fracture like that.
- mc32 6y agoTo add to that, by the time it’s ready for mass production, how important will piston engines be? I suppose if will be gradual replacement by electrics but still it’s not like they would have lots of life in them.
- dpoochieni 6y agoLol I'd say we still have about 50 years to go. Plus Porsche will cater to enthusiasts. I know I will always have at least 1 gas car
- toomuchtodo 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... Scroll down to the countries starting to ban fossil fuel vehicles. I think you’re fine for the next 10-15 years, after that I think it’s hazy whether fossil fuel vehicles will be permitted to be used at all if battery electrics take off. My bet is we reach a tipping point and an outright ban around 2035, if not earlier due to refinery unprofitability due to volume declines. I do look forward to Porsche attempting a competitive EV though! @JumpCrisscross: Throttled, can’t reply to your comment. “Progress happens slowly, and then all of a sudden.”
- dpoochieni 6y agoThink it will become a matter of having enough money. Maybe it'll cost 10X more but as with all these kinds of policies and restrictions, $ will still speak. Since most of the bans you point to are about new cars, I can already bet that the price for used combustion engine cars will skyrocket depending on model. Hmmm, makes me wonder how one could play this market
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago> we reach a tipping point and an outright ban around 2035 Zero chance of this happening in the U.S., U.K. or Germany. I imagine the Gulf, India and China will similarly retain sport driving cultures. Mass-manufactured ICE vehicles are past their nadir. But mechanical engines will have a long life thereafter.
- smaddox 6y agoSpaceX has been using 3D printed rocket nozzles with graded alloy compositions in production for years.
- DarthGhandi 6y agoRocketlab too, additive metal manufacturing is definitely production ready. There's YouTube channels that get 3d car engine parts printed. This is not just the realm of multinationals.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Jerry2 6y agoFrom the article: >they weigh 10 percent less than their forged equivalents and feature an integrated and closed cooling duct in the piston crown that's apparently unable to be reproduced using traditional manufacturing methods. The decrease in weight and temperature results in an extra 30 horsepower on top of the GT2 RS's already mighty 700. So.. 10% less weight and ~4% increase in performance. But what about the increase in price? 3D printing is magnitudes slower than forging and probably many times more expensive. I guess some Porsche owners would gladly pay for these improvements.
- throwgeorge 6y agothe GT2 RS has a base price of $294,250. I doubt these pistons cost any increment that anyone that buys a porsche will care.
- coliveira 6y agoSome people who care about car performance would gladly pay twice the price to get that 4% increase.
- stanfordkid 6y agoYeah, 30hp is a lot, esp considering the weight is reduced.
- alfalfasprout 6y agoIt's not only HP necessarily either. Lighter pistons could also improve responsiveness. You're accelerating less mass so that could mean a nicer torque curve if you increase weight savings in the moving parts of the drivetrain.
- missedthecue 6y agoDoes it really matter? If it costs say an extra $500 per piston will people really not buy that $290k car?
- elif 6y ago
- swatson741 6y agoVery impressive. Too bad they take 10 hours to yield. I'm excited to see how far they can take this in F1.
- alfalfasprout 6y agoCould see them used in top-spec cars. Eg; 911 GT2RS/GT3RS.
- burger_moon 6y agoI thought it might be about metal matrix composites which are even lighter than traditional forged magnesium pistons https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_matrix_composite https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_matrix_composite
- durkie 6y agoMy info is a little out of date (~10 years) but I did a MS thesis on aluminum/carbon fiber composites and holy hell are they impossible to produce. There are so many factors that just make these materials not want to go together (similar for Mg / carbon fiber). I would be really surprised to see any real MMC any time soon.
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y agoMMC parts are used in quite a few high performance vehicles today, particularly brake rotors. They're still premium parts, but it's stuff you can get from Ford or Honda on their more limited editions. I know less about it, but as I understand it they're productionized in aerospace now too, again though, just generally for very high spec and price parts.
- frandroid 6y agoHow does a 10% weight reduction in such a tiny, light part as a piston (okay, 8 of them or something) result in a 5% output increase?
- bri3d 6y agoPistons move very quickly, and faster and faster as engine speed (RPM) increases. Eventually, getting the piston to change direction becomes not only a parasitic loss of power on its own, but introduces a lot of design challenges around the strength and design of the crankshaft bearings, connecting rods, and piston retention pin. Furthermore, the crankshaft should balance the weight of the pistons, so losing weight from the pistons also loses weight from the crankshaft. Reducing the mass of the pistons often adds more headroom in these components and enables the engine to reach a higher maximum operating RPM (redline), and since horsepower is a function of torque x speed (RPM), increasing redline often directly increases peak output.
- dugditches 6y ago10% is massive in a piece of metal rotating so quickly. Tiny pistons is how some motorcycles got incredible power out of small displacement(and ridiculous gearboxes). 20,000 RPM engines, 150mph/240kmh out of 250cc(4-stroke as well). And this was in the 60's. (loud) https://youtu.be/o57JwibqCb8?t=114 https://youtu.be/o57JwibqCb8?t=114 https://i.imgur.com/HMvaSYh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/HMvaSYh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/BefSzRs.jpg https://i.imgur.com/BefSzRs.jpg https://youtu.be/7d3hdDgFMrQ?t=5979 https://youtu.be/7d3hdDgFMrQ?t=5979
- Smoosh 6y ago> metal rotating so quickly *reciprocating It's also why racing engines (when not limited by regulations, or when only limited on total capacity) tended to have 8, 10, 12 or more cylinders. Despite the increase in the physical size of the engine, each cylinder would be smaller (for the same displacement) allowing higher revs and more power.
- Smoosh 6y agoLighter pistons allow the engine to rev higher. Power = Torque * revs. At 6000rpm a typical piston has to be accelerated from zero to ~50km/h and back to zero 200 times per second. Every bit of weight saving helps.
- timzaman 6y agoPistons? They should also make some lightweight carbon fiber saddles for my horse and carriage.
- llukas 6y agoAlready done. https://www.oldsouthcarriage.com/about/our-carriages/ https://www.oldsouthcarriage.com/about/our-carriages/ In 2014, Old South Carriage put a contemporary twist on our horse-drawn carriages. We began converting our fleet of wooden carriages to a carbon-fiber composite material similar to that used in Boeing’s 787 jetliner. Our reasoning? If it’s good enough for Boeing, it’s good enough for us! The result is a lighter weight, more durable carriage which requires much less maintenance than its wooden predecessor. With this innovation, we successfully increased the level of comfort for both our horses and passengers while preserving the look, feel, and authenticity of our original carriages.
- g8oz 6y agoThis article is also interesting "The Amish Horse-Drawn Buggy Is More Tech-Forward Than You Think: The tech inside this 19th-century conveyance isn't stuck in the 19th century." https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-technology/a24666/how-the-amish-build-a-buggy/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-technology/a24666/...
- fermienrico 6y agoThe fricking media/PR around 3D printing is really annoying. You can't match: 1) Get benefits of strength like in forging process 2) Case hardening would still need to be done 3) Shot peening and surface hardening? 4) Speed 5) Cost 6) Robustness and reliability, how many 3D printers have various ways of 3D printing, how do you validate parts for strength? It is a monumental challenge. Traditional processes are vetted and tested for decades. 7) Material wastage 8) Footprint and floorspace (1 injection molding machine can replace about a 10,000 3d printers to match the volume). 9) Power consumption 10) Human labor and attendance (may be this is already solved) I work in manufacturing and we have a bunch of 3d printers. They make amazing tools for prototyping and testing things out. Hell, we don't even use them anymore because its just faster and cheaper to get it from Protolabs / 3D Hubs. 3D Printing has extremely useful applications where we can optimize the shape without concerning for right angles, draft angles, chamfers, and fillets. Some of the ANSYS tools can use algorithms to optimize the shape that looks like a bio-mechanical thing because we are no longer constrained by aforementioned restrictions. But the public needs to understand that 3D printing will not replace everything. It is like saying cars replaced bicycles when they were being used in late 1890's... no, we still have bicylces 120 years later and will continue to use them. 3D printing serves a niche purpose and a huge benefit in medical/dental industries but boy the media is doing a horrible job of explaining its advantages and disadvantages. I just see misinformation all over.
- wil421 6y agoIn my experience it’s not the general public who is hyping 3D printing its the tech/nerd crowd. I can remember when 3D printing was getting affordable and people telling me I just didn’t understand how it would change manufacturing.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ReactiveJelly 6y ago> It is like saying cars replaced bicycles when they were being used in late 1890's... no, we still have bicycles A couple years ago, maybe on HN itself, someone bragged about how QR codes were totally obsolete because they had made a better version. Their 'better' version relied on a web service that they controlled. So, I can't scan the code offline, and I'm at their mercy. It would have been a great joke if they weren't so serious.
- adrianN 6y agoIt's nice that they get some use out of 3d printing, but what's the point of R&D in ICE cars? It's a dying technology. In twenty or thirty years their sale will hopefully be banned in most interesting markets, or at least strongly disincentivized.
- hndamien 6y agoClear case of optimising the wrong thing.
- asguy 6y agoThis is like the RISC vs CISC debate: 25 years ago some of the loudest individuals proclaimed that x86 was dead, and we’d all be on MIPS/PowerPC/SPARC/Alpha. Reality doesn’t always match up with idealism. Engineering has a habit of advancing due to incremental improvements. The ICE still has room to grow and become more efficient.
- adrianN 6y agoThe ICE has no room to become carbon neutral with efficiencies that are even comparable to electrics. Getting from electricity to liquid fuel to movement probably has losses exceeding 90%. Electric cars on the other hand are like 80% efficient.
- thomquaid 6y agoYou are very wrong here. Ethanol as an ICE fuel could be done carbon neutral very quickly thru yeast, and battery technology will probably never reach comparable energy densities in weight limited applications (mobile applications). We may engineer a society where the limitations of batteries are not limiting (because we/goods never travel far), but only a fool thinks you need electricity as an energy source for carbon neutral ICE.
- adrianN 6y agoI think you're underestimating the amount of land you need to feed all that yeast.
- hinkley 6y agoIt seems to me that you could get pretty close to this design with traditional casting, forging, and then a pass with a multiple axis CNC machine. You’d get a little extra material down in some of those more complex curves, but how much really? And with a stronger part you could save material elsewhere.
- chauffer 6y agosomebody tell Ferrari.
- rolivercoffee 6y agoSomeone already did: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-eyes-innovative-piston-solution-thanks-to-3d-printing-870008/870008/ https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-eyes-innovative-p...