9 ms·

I always heard that the '59s were prized for their PAFs [0] and the aged mahogany, but I've only ever heard one on a record and never played one myself. We've c

by qppo 6y ago

I always heard that the '59s were prized for their PAFs [0] and the aged mahogany, but I've only ever heard one on a record and never played one myself. We've come a long way since 1959 in terms of neck dimensions/radii and modern CNCs can carve out pretty much any shape, rather reliably. Seems weird to prize since Gibson necks are horrible. But hey, guitarists are weird people. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAF_(pickup) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAF_(pickup)

vondur 6y ago
I hear you, it's crazy how good a $500 guitar is these days. When I started playing, an entry level guitar was pretty bad. That's not the case any longer.
- julianlam 6y ago
  That's because that crappy $500 guitar back then has been replaced with a $125 crappier guitar today.
  - LeegleechN 6y ago
    I recently bought a $150 crappy guitar (Squire Bullet Stratocaster) and it's honestly pretty excellent. It stays in tune, there are no playability issues, and it sounds good once you have your amp settings dialed in. Electric guitars are really simple and undemanding instruments and it doesn't take a lot to make them well. The particular model I bought was manufactured in Indonesia. It's true that I don't think you could find a decent acoustic guitar for anywhere near that price. I recently paid $500 for my first acoustic because I saw a clear difference in quality between the one I selected (Taylor GS Mini) and the competition in the $200-$400 price range.
    - Tade0 6y ago
      When itcomes to guitars Indonesia is the new Korea just like Korea was the new Japan. I have one of the last Korean Ibanezes(2005) before production of mid and low end models was almost entirely moved to Indonesia, and in 2006 the Korean ones were much better in comparison. Nowadays, after almost 15 years the Indonesian made Ibanezes caught up.
      - Infernal 6y ago
        I’m fairly certain China is the new Indonesia. My $100 Fender DG-7 was made in Indonesia 17 years ago, anything in that price range even inflation adjusted would be made in China now.
        Tade0 6y ago
        Thing is, nowadays even $1000+ instruments are made in Indonesia, which was unheard of 15 years ago.
    - oriolid 6y ago
      I think the quality is still hit or miss. I have a Chinese Epiphone LP Standard from 2017 or so, and it is a fine guitar, but this is after leveling frets and replacing the nut, bridge and pickups. Before that it would not stay in tune, buzzed at several frets, sounded dull both acoustically and through pickups and especially the "hotch" bridge pickup was a wonderful combination of muddy and thin. If you are thinking "but that's how a Les Paul sounds", you have no idea how muddy and thin. To be honest, the "59" neck pickup wasn't bad, but Tonerider that replaced it is better. Another guitar I use regularly is a Squier Bullet Strat. It sounds kind of like Strat and it doesn't buzz at frets because of super high action, but it won't stay in tune, the ends frets are sharp and so are saddle adjustment screws that are a couple of millimeters too long and the icing on the cake is that basically anything played on second string makes something under pickguard rattle unless you press it at a certain spot. If you have to ask, it's audible through pickups and kills sustain. I think you can find equally bad USA-made instruments at several times of the price if you look hard enough, but I wouldn't call these good instruments.
      - kranner 6y ago
        A Squier Affinity Stratocaster was my first electric guitar. This was more than 20 years ago, so may be the quality has gone down recently, but there was really nothing wrong with it mechanically. The action was perfect (and fairly low), all the fret ends were well-dressed, the neck was perfect and it had great sustain. I didn't get any fret buzz even with Ernie Ball Super Slinkys. It stayed in tune once I learned how to wind new strings properly and stretch them out, etc. The pickups were shit, though.
        oriolid 6y ago
        Sounds like you have Japan-made Squier. I haven't seen one in person, but they do have a good reputation and probably cost now more than when they were new. The current cheapest Squiers are completely different guitars, and apparently even these have good and bad ones and I one of the worst. There are people who claim that you can get a good guitar if you buy a pile of Harley Bentons or Squiers, keep the best one and return the rest. My Epiphone was apparently a customer return.
    - dwd 6y ago
      Fender owns Squire so it will be essentially the same guitar but made from cheaper wood and cheaper components. Back in the 80s I bought a Charvel (Japanese) as I couldn't afford a Jackson (US made) - the cheaper Floyd Rose tremolo was disappointing but it was fine to play. Eventually switched to an Ibanez RG 570 which was super nice to play.
      - oriolid 6y ago
        If "essentially the same" means "subcontracted for the company that owns the name and copyright to headstock shape". Original Fenders have already changed so much that the company sells replicas of their old products, and on the other hand there's nothing that prevents competitors (including G+L, the company Leo Fender himself started after selling the more famous one) making the exact same guitar if they change the shape just enough that it can be recognized as different brand.
        dwd 6y ago
        Essentially the same in that an electric guitar is a few pieces of wood with some hardware and electronics. How well those pieces are put together and the quality and specs of each component makes the difference. The type and grade of wood used will also affect the string vibration and what overtone frequencies are refected back into the strings. It takes 20-40 years to mature a mahogany tree so while your boutique makers will spend the time to source the perfect timber you won't get that for a mass produced guitar. There are guitarists who swear by their guitar tech who will adjust everything from bridge height, neck tension, even reseat and glue the neck before they pick it up the first time. I pulled the neck off my old Charvel more than once to get a lower, more even string height along the fretboard. Second time I filed back a few frets that had nicks or weren't quite evenly set and sanded the epoxy coating off the neck and replaced with shellac for a smoother raw wood feel.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        oriolid 6y ago
    - inertiatic 6y ago
      My Squier Bullet made in mid 2019 is the best guitar I have ever played. It sounds more than okay (which is subjective). The body is light but without any head dive present. The neck is a dream and the fretwork is impeccable. The tuners are bad but not awful. That's the only bad thing I can say about it.
      - steverb 6y ago
        And tuners are super easy to replace.
        inertiatic 6y ago
        In this case there are no drop in replacements unfortunately. You'd have to drill holes. But I'm okay with keeping these stock regardless, they're fine if you tune up.
- elihu 6y ago
  My theory of the progression of manufacturing for some product goes like this: stage 1: figure out how to make a thing stage 2: figure out how to make the thing well stage 3: figure out how to make the thing cheaply stage 4: figure out how to make the thing well, cheaply I'd say that for electric guitars, the '59 Les Paul was at the early end of stage 2, and sometime in the last decade or so we've gradually transitioned into stage 4. One might argue that there's also a stage 5: figure out how to make the thing well and cheap, but customized to a specific user's preferences. Right now, that's the main reason why one would have an electric guitar custom made by a luthier rather than buy a factory-made instrument. (I like to mess around with just-intonation-based tuning systems, and have ended up building or modifying a lot of instruments simply because guitars in the tunings I want simply aren't for sale.)
  - vondur 6y ago
    I've had 2 Kiesel's semi-custom made for me. Nice guitars and both were under $1500 for made in the USA.
    - elihu 6y ago
      Yeah, it's amazing what you can have made specifically for you for the same price or less than an American-made Fender or Gibson if you go with a small-volume manufacturer or an independent luthier.
    - cpursley 6y ago
      I was about to mention Kiesel but you beat me to it. I'd argue that they're the real American guitar company (Gibson & Fender are has beens). Affordable made to order instruments that are ergonomic, high quality, and innovative. https://www.kieselguitars.com/customshop/ https://www.kieselguitars.com/customshop/
- jjjensen90 6y ago
  It's incredible the quality you can get in that price range. I bought a PRS SE Custom 24 for $700 and it is like a museum piece compared to what $500-700 would have bought when I was starting out 20 years ago. Absolutely awesome.
silverdemon 6y ago
They're collectable and valuable because of the association with famous players in the classic rock era, and the rarity of examples. A perfect copy of the Mona Lisa would be worth a few $, not a few milion $, even if it were indistinguishable to the viewer. Many guitarists fetishize the 59 Les Paul because of the sound. The trick is that '59 Les Paul might not sound any different objectively, but the musician knows they are playing an iconic and rare instrument. This can make the musician play better than usual. Guitarists often attribute this to the "mojo" in the guitar; the trick is the mojo is in the player's belief.
- irscott 6y ago
  100% this. I work in vintage guitars and this is a huge part of it. This why a 62 strat costs way more than a 62 jaguar.
- elihu 6y ago
  On one hand, I think the 59 Les Paul would be valuable to people who collect those sorts of rare things regardless of whether they actually intend to play it. On the other hand, I could see that for some successful performers, the purchase could be a sound financial investment if fans are just a bit more excited about hearing their favorite musician playing a rare instrument live than they would otherwise be. One might be able to recover the purchase price of the instrument through increased ticket sales.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- jakear 6y ago
  I can assure you that a perfect copy of the Mona Lisa (i.e. indistinguishable, even to an expert) would cost much more than a few dollars.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  The mojo is always in the player, and buying more expensive instruments won't create it if it's not there. I once turned up to a pub session and saw this hairy-looking person with a complete PoS no-name guitar. It had holes in the body and looked like it was held together with tape. Even so. Surprisingly good sound. Sweet playing. Complete opposite to the guitar nerds who turn up with gleaming prestige instruments they fumble around on. I found out afterwards he'd been in a household name UK pop band in the late 60s.
SquishyPanda23 6y ago
> Gibson necks are horrible Hey now, the neck on the Gibson SG is wonderful. I've owned both and personally strongly prefer the SG. It doesn't have the same iconic image as the Les Paul, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_SG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_SG
- qppo 6y ago
  They say Gibson puts the "break" in "break angle" But personally I'm just not a fan of the shorter scale lengths and thick gloss finishes on most Gibsons, I'm personally a fan of thinner maple necks and will sand down the finish myself if I have to, but everyone's different
  - SquishyPanda23 6y ago
    > I'm personally a fan of thinner maple necks and will sand down the finish myself if I have to, but everyone's different Oh I am too. Most of the time I play a Fender. But I love playing an SG also.
- pivo 6y ago
  Absolutely agree. My SG was the best guitar I’ve ever played. Stupidly I sold it when moving once. I’ll always regret that.
titzer 6y ago
Jimmy Page is known to have shaved down is #1 Les Paul neck to be incredibly slim [1]. It make sense because as much as I like Les Pauls, I never really liked the neck profile of mine. It's worth mentioning that there are tons of different neck profiles for Les Pauls throughout the ages, too, so there isn't just one "Les Paul" neck. [1] https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?83971-Jimmy-Page-Les-Paul-neck https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?83971-Jimm...
fit2rule 6y ago
Musicians are the ultimate consumers. They spend a lot of money on their style and substance, and are generally easy to get recurring revenues from, if you can push the right buttons. (Disclaimer: worked in the MI business for decades. It always fills me with a sense of wonder, the things people will buy to make themselves sound different from others while also conforming to industry expectations...)
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  https://www.andertons.co.uk/custom-shop/fender-custom-shop-jimmy-page-telecaster-pair https://www.andertons.co.uk/custom-shop/fender-custom-shop-j... Because that link may not work forever - although I suspect it will be there for a while - the summary is: two Telecaster guitars painted to look like copies of the Teles Jimmy Page played in Led Zeppelin. Signed by Jimmy Page. £44,999. I'd love to know what the shop markup is on those, or if they're on sale-or-return. Synthesizers have a similar scene. An official Keith Emerson Moog Modular Replica reissue a few years ago was being sold for >$100k. (Note to those under 40: Keith Emerson was a famous/notorious rock keyboardist in the 1970s.)
  - vr46 6y ago
    Bloody hell. I have a Nile Rodgers Custom Strat that Paul Waller was involved in but certainly didn't make himself. And less than a tenth of the price of these two. Is there really a significant difference in provenance between a Custom Shop guitar and a Master Built?
    - fit2rule 6y ago
      How many platinum records does your guitar appear in?
  - fit2rule 6y ago
    Musical Instrument markup is still pretty astonishing outside the 'cocktail set' shenanigans, especially if your eyes have been bleeding from the situation in the tech scene. It doesn't have to be a 'classic' synthesiser to command extraordinary markup/profit. There is a reason why the current synthesiser market is vibrant and active and virulent - and nobody is playing well with each other, there are more competing platforms to do the same thing than many other spaces. That reason is, you can spend $100 on a BOM-per-product, and sell it for 5 figures, year after year. That $3000 synth workstation, at scale, can add up to a lot of real, good old fashioned atom-based commercialisation.

by qppo 6y ago

vondur 6y ago

I hear you, it's crazy how good a $500 guitar is these days. When I started playing, an entry level guitar was pretty bad. That's not the case any longer.

julianlam 6y ago
That's because that crappy $500 guitar back then has been replaced with a $125 crappier guitar today.
- LeegleechN 6y ago
  I recently bought a $150 crappy guitar (Squire Bullet Stratocaster) and it's honestly pretty excellent. It stays in tune, there are no playability issues, and it sounds good once you have your amp settings dialed in. Electric guitars are really simple and undemanding instruments and it doesn't take a lot to make them well. The particular model I bought was manufactured in Indonesia. It's true that I don't think you could find a decent acoustic guitar for anywhere near that price. I recently paid $500 for my first acoustic because I saw a clear difference in quality between the one I selected (Taylor GS Mini) and the competition in the $200-$400 price range.
  - Tade0 6y ago
    When itcomes to guitars Indonesia is the new Korea just like Korea was the new Japan. I have one of the last Korean Ibanezes(2005) before production of mid and low end models was almost entirely moved to Indonesia, and in 2006 the Korean ones were much better in comparison. Nowadays, after almost 15 years the Indonesian made Ibanezes caught up.
    - Infernal 6y ago
      I’m fairly certain China is the new Indonesia. My $100 Fender DG-7 was made in Indonesia 17 years ago, anything in that price range even inflation adjusted would be made in China now.
      - Tade0 6y ago
        Thing is, nowadays even $1000+ instruments are made in Indonesia, which was unheard of 15 years ago.
  - oriolid 6y ago
    I think the quality is still hit or miss. I have a Chinese Epiphone LP Standard from 2017 or so, and it is a fine guitar, but this is after leveling frets and replacing the nut, bridge and pickups. Before that it would not stay in tune, buzzed at several frets, sounded dull both acoustically and through pickups and especially the "hotch" bridge pickup was a wonderful combination of muddy and thin. If you are thinking "but that's how a Les Paul sounds", you have no idea how muddy and thin. To be honest, the "59" neck pickup wasn't bad, but Tonerider that replaced it is better. Another guitar I use regularly is a Squier Bullet Strat. It sounds kind of like Strat and it doesn't buzz at frets because of super high action, but it won't stay in tune, the ends frets are sharp and so are saddle adjustment screws that are a couple of millimeters too long and the icing on the cake is that basically anything played on second string makes something under pickguard rattle unless you press it at a certain spot. If you have to ask, it's audible through pickups and kills sustain. I think you can find equally bad USA-made instruments at several times of the price if you look hard enough, but I wouldn't call these good instruments.
    - kranner 6y ago
      A Squier Affinity Stratocaster was my first electric guitar. This was more than 20 years ago, so may be the quality has gone down recently, but there was really nothing wrong with it mechanically. The action was perfect (and fairly low), all the fret ends were well-dressed, the neck was perfect and it had great sustain. I didn't get any fret buzz even with Ernie Ball Super Slinkys. It stayed in tune once I learned how to wind new strings properly and stretch them out, etc. The pickups were shit, though.
      - oriolid 6y ago
        Sounds like you have Japan-made Squier. I haven't seen one in person, but they do have a good reputation and probably cost now more than when they were new. The current cheapest Squiers are completely different guitars, and apparently even these have good and bad ones and I one of the worst. There are people who claim that you can get a good guitar if you buy a pile of Harley Bentons or Squiers, keep the best one and return the rest. My Epiphone was apparently a customer return.
  - dwd 6y ago
    Fender owns Squire so it will be essentially the same guitar but made from cheaper wood and cheaper components. Back in the 80s I bought a Charvel (Japanese) as I couldn't afford a Jackson (US made) - the cheaper Floyd Rose tremolo was disappointing but it was fine to play. Eventually switched to an Ibanez RG 570 which was super nice to play.
    - oriolid 6y ago
      If "essentially the same" means "subcontracted for the company that owns the name and copyright to headstock shape". Original Fenders have already changed so much that the company sells replicas of their old products, and on the other hand there's nothing that prevents competitors (including G+L, the company Leo Fender himself started after selling the more famous one) making the exact same guitar if they change the shape just enough that it can be recognized as different brand.
      - dwd 6y ago
        Essentially the same in that an electric guitar is a few pieces of wood with some hardware and electronics. How well those pieces are put together and the quality and specs of each component makes the difference. The type and grade of wood used will also affect the string vibration and what overtone frequencies are refected back into the strings. It takes 20-40 years to mature a mahogany tree so while your boutique makers will spend the time to source the perfect timber you won't get that for a mass produced guitar. There are guitarists who swear by their guitar tech who will adjust everything from bridge height, neck tension, even reseat and glue the neck before they pick it up the first time. I pulled the neck off my old Charvel more than once to get a lower, more even string height along the fretboard. Second time I filed back a few frets that had nicks or weren't quite evenly set and sanded the epoxy coating off the neck and replaced with shellac for a smoother raw wood feel.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        oriolid 6y ago
  - inertiatic 6y ago
    My Squier Bullet made in mid 2019 is the best guitar I have ever played. It sounds more than okay (which is subjective). The body is light but without any head dive present. The neck is a dream and the fretwork is impeccable. The tuners are bad but not awful. That's the only bad thing I can say about it.
    - steverb 6y ago
      And tuners are super easy to replace.
      - inertiatic 6y ago
        In this case there are no drop in replacements unfortunately. You'd have to drill holes. But I'm okay with keeping these stock regardless, they're fine if you tune up.
elihu 6y ago
My theory of the progression of manufacturing for some product goes like this: stage 1: figure out how to make a thing stage 2: figure out how to make the thing well stage 3: figure out how to make the thing cheaply stage 4: figure out how to make the thing well, cheaply I'd say that for electric guitars, the '59 Les Paul was at the early end of stage 2, and sometime in the last decade or so we've gradually transitioned into stage 4. One might argue that there's also a stage 5: figure out how to make the thing well and cheap, but customized to a specific user's preferences. Right now, that's the main reason why one would have an electric guitar custom made by a luthier rather than buy a factory-made instrument. (I like to mess around with just-intonation-based tuning systems, and have ended up building or modifying a lot of instruments simply because guitars in the tunings I want simply aren't for sale.)
- vondur 6y ago
  I've had 2 Kiesel's semi-custom made for me. Nice guitars and both were under $1500 for made in the USA.
  - elihu 6y ago
    Yeah, it's amazing what you can have made specifically for you for the same price or less than an American-made Fender or Gibson if you go with a small-volume manufacturer or an independent luthier.
  - cpursley 6y ago
    I was about to mention Kiesel but you beat me to it. I'd argue that they're the real American guitar company (Gibson & Fender are has beens). Affordable made to order instruments that are ergonomic, high quality, and innovative. https://www.kieselguitars.com/customshop/ https://www.kieselguitars.com/customshop/
jjjensen90 6y ago
It's incredible the quality you can get in that price range. I bought a PRS SE Custom 24 for $700 and it is like a museum piece compared to what $500-700 would have bought when I was starting out 20 years ago. Absolutely awesome.

silverdemon 6y ago

They're collectable and valuable because of the association with famous players in the classic rock era, and the rarity of examples. A perfect copy of the Mona Lisa would be worth a few $, not a few milion $, even if it were indistinguishable to the viewer. Many guitarists fetishize the 59 Les Paul because of the sound. The trick is that '59 Les Paul might not sound any different objectively, but the musician knows they are playing an iconic and rare instrument. This can make the musician play better than usual. Guitarists often attribute this to the "mojo" in the guitar; the trick is the mojo is in the player's belief.

irscott 6y ago
100% this. I work in vintage guitars and this is a huge part of it. This why a 62 strat costs way more than a 62 jaguar.
elihu 6y ago
On one hand, I think the 59 Les Paul would be valuable to people who collect those sorts of rare things regardless of whether they actually intend to play it. On the other hand, I could see that for some successful performers, the purchase could be a sound financial investment if fans are just a bit more excited about hearing their favorite musician playing a rare instrument live than they would otherwise be. One might be able to recover the purchase price of the instrument through increased ticket sales.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jakear 6y ago
I can assure you that a perfect copy of the Mona Lisa (i.e. indistinguishable, even to an expert) would cost much more than a few dollars.
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
The mojo is always in the player, and buying more expensive instruments won't create it if it's not there. I once turned up to a pub session and saw this hairy-looking person with a complete PoS no-name guitar. It had holes in the body and looked like it was held together with tape. Even so. Surprisingly good sound. Sweet playing. Complete opposite to the guitar nerds who turn up with gleaming prestige instruments they fumble around on. I found out afterwards he'd been in a household name UK pop band in the late 60s.

SquishyPanda23 6y ago

> Gibson necks are horrible Hey now, the neck on the Gibson SG is wonderful. I've owned both and personally strongly prefer the SG. It doesn't have the same iconic image as the Les Paul, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_SG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_SG

qppo 6y ago
They say Gibson puts the "break" in "break angle" But personally I'm just not a fan of the shorter scale lengths and thick gloss finishes on most Gibsons, I'm personally a fan of thinner maple necks and will sand down the finish myself if I have to, but everyone's different
- SquishyPanda23 6y ago
  > I'm personally a fan of thinner maple necks and will sand down the finish myself if I have to, but everyone's different Oh I am too. Most of the time I play a Fender. But I love playing an SG also.
pivo 6y ago
Absolutely agree. My SG was the best guitar I’ve ever played. Stupidly I sold it when moving once. I’ll always regret that.

titzer 6y ago

Jimmy Page is known to have shaved down is #1 Les Paul neck to be incredibly slim [1]. It make sense because as much as I like Les Pauls, I never really liked the neck profile of mine. It's worth mentioning that there are tons of different neck profiles for Les Pauls throughout the ages, too, so there isn't just one "Les Paul" neck. [1] https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?83971-Jimmy-Page-Les-Paul-neck https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?83971-Jimm...

fit2rule 6y ago

Musicians are the ultimate consumers. They spend a lot of money on their style and substance, and are generally easy to get recurring revenues from, if you can push the right buttons. (Disclaimer: worked in the MI business for decades. It always fills me with a sense of wonder, the things people will buy to make themselves sound different from others while also conforming to industry expectations...)

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
https://www.andertons.co.uk/custom-shop/fender-custom-shop-jimmy-page-telecaster-pair https://www.andertons.co.uk/custom-shop/fender-custom-shop-j... Because that link may not work forever - although I suspect it will be there for a while - the summary is: two Telecaster guitars painted to look like copies of the Teles Jimmy Page played in Led Zeppelin. Signed by Jimmy Page. £44,999. I'd love to know what the shop markup is on those, or if they're on sale-or-return. Synthesizers have a similar scene. An official Keith Emerson Moog Modular Replica reissue a few years ago was being sold for >$100k. (Note to those under 40: Keith Emerson was a famous/notorious rock keyboardist in the 1970s.)
- vr46 6y ago
  Bloody hell. I have a Nile Rodgers Custom Strat that Paul Waller was involved in but certainly didn't make himself. And less than a tenth of the price of these two. Is there really a significant difference in provenance between a Custom Shop guitar and a Master Built?
  - fit2rule 6y ago
    How many platinum records does your guitar appear in?
- fit2rule 6y ago
  Musical Instrument markup is still pretty astonishing outside the 'cocktail set' shenanigans, especially if your eyes have been bleeding from the situation in the tech scene. It doesn't have to be a 'classic' synthesiser to command extraordinary markup/profit. There is a reason why the current synthesiser market is vibrant and active and virulent - and nobody is playing well with each other, there are more competing platforms to do the same thing than many other spaces. That reason is, you can spend $100 on a BOM-per-product, and sell it for 5 figures, year after year. That $3000 synth workstation, at scale, can add up to a lot of real, good old fashioned atom-based commercialisation.