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This is an instance of having very compelling writing that describes a problem eloquently.... and then proposes solutions that are disastrous and make things ev

This is an instance of having very compelling writing that describes a problem eloquently.... and then proposes solutions that are disastrous and make things even worse. Educating humanity is difficult. Every solution has its flaws. Giving up on it is worse than every flawed solution, however.

core-questions 6y ago
It is a hallmark of left-wing political thought to have excellent, valid critiques of real problems, and then on top of such an excellent foundation, provide solutions that involve only deconstruction, tearing-down, revolution, and other such feel-good, troop-rallying calls to action - and no actual plan for what to do once we get to the far side. The identified problems remain, as do all of the original problems that the outgoing system has solved. The aeons of tradition that have built up to the current solution will have to simply be rediscovered the hard way, perhaps with different window-dressing, but ultimately not that far off from their previous incarnation, especially if the deconstruction happens by those who haven't truly learned the lessons about what went well and what went badly before. Sometimes this comes about because the wishful solutions we want to apply don't work; sometimes because reality is messier than we want to admit, and the solutions are messier still. Child discipline, for example, may always end up being harsher than we as gentle, respectful people would like it to be, particularly for unruly children. Institutions may always be slower to react and improve than we would like. Much like in software, a full rewrite is often only a pathway to a new set of problems, compared to a refactoring that could solve the known set of problems that remain without losing any existing value.
throwaw4y-plate 6y ago
That's basically Marx in a nutshell. Great diagnosis, impractical cure.
- marnett 6y ago
  Is there a particular “cure” that was recommended by Marx/Engels for addressing their observations on the relationship between capital and labor in mid-19th century industrialist England that you found specifically impractical for the time?
  - redbar0n 6y ago
    I think he was referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto Perhaps specifically: "In the last paragraph of the Manifesto, the authors call for a 'forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions', which served as a call for communist revolutions around the world." And we know how those went.
    - labelbias 6y ago
      The greatest managers of capitalism are authoritarian communists.
guidoism 6y ago
"Giving up" is not a good summary of what Illich proposes. In fact, it can be argued that what we are doing right now is giving up on education. Education != Schooling. Education is a life-long process. Everybody loves to learn and loves education. This is true even for the "dumbest" most anti-intellectual people you know, you are just looking at learning and education through a very narrow lens. You don't need to force people to learn. Not everybody loves to be forced to be sitting in a school classroom for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week. And not everybody want to memorize state capitals.
jariel 6y ago
Making a bunch of casual statements that are neither necessarily scientific, nor factual, nor founded - but in an elegant manner, does not make them true. There are 3 or so Billion people living in civilisation, oddly enough, have somewhat similar education systems. With some degree of variation, there doesn't seem to be any magic, other than the things we know are going to work. And yes, we know a good chunk of it is just daycare and that's ok too.

core-questions 6y ago

It is a hallmark of left-wing political thought to have excellent, valid critiques of real problems, and then on top of such an excellent foundation, provide solutions that involve only deconstruction, tearing-down, revolution, and other such feel-good, troop-rallying calls to action - and no actual plan for what to do once we get to the far side. The identified problems remain, as do all of the original problems that the outgoing system has solved. The aeons of tradition that have built up to the current solution will have to simply be rediscovered the hard way, perhaps with different window-dressing, but ultimately not that far off from their previous incarnation, especially if the deconstruction happens by those who haven't truly learned the lessons about what went well and what went badly before. Sometimes this comes about because the wishful solutions we want to apply don't work; sometimes because reality is messier than we want to admit, and the solutions are messier still. Child discipline, for example, may always end up being harsher than we as gentle, respectful people would like it to be, particularly for unruly children. Institutions may always be slower to react and improve than we would like. Much like in software, a full rewrite is often only a pathway to a new set of problems, compared to a refactoring that could solve the known set of problems that remain without losing any existing value.

throwaw4y-plate 6y ago

That's basically Marx in a nutshell. Great diagnosis, impractical cure.

marnett 6y ago
Is there a particular “cure” that was recommended by Marx/Engels for addressing their observations on the relationship between capital and labor in mid-19th century industrialist England that you found specifically impractical for the time?
- redbar0n 6y ago
  I think he was referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto Perhaps specifically: "In the last paragraph of the Manifesto, the authors call for a 'forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions', which served as a call for communist revolutions around the world." And we know how those went.
  - labelbias 6y ago
    The greatest managers of capitalism are authoritarian communists.

guidoism 6y ago

"Giving up" is not a good summary of what Illich proposes. In fact, it can be argued that what we are doing right now is giving up on education. Education != Schooling. Education is a life-long process. Everybody loves to learn and loves education. This is true even for the "dumbest" most anti-intellectual people you know, you are just looking at learning and education through a very narrow lens. You don't need to force people to learn. Not everybody loves to be forced to be sitting in a school classroom for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week. And not everybody want to memorize state capitals.

jariel 6y ago

Making a bunch of casual statements that are neither necessarily scientific, nor factual, nor founded - but in an elegant manner, does not make them true. There are 3 or so Billion people living in civilisation, oddly enough, have somewhat similar education systems. With some degree of variation, there doesn't seem to be any magic, other than the things we know are going to work. And yes, we know a good chunk of it is just daycare and that's ok too.