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There’s a ton of evidence that our education system, universities, popular media and more has been building up an ideology based on a postmodern/poststructurali

There’s a ton of evidence that our education system, universities, popular media and more has been building up an ideology based on a postmodern/poststructuralist theory that has culminated in what you see today as woke/cancel culture, Antifa, etc. You may not agree with these theories, I certainly am less of a conspiracy theorist about them than some (to me they seem guided by good intention more than cabals of boogeymen), but the case has been made by many especially as of late, and yes, were clear by the mid-90s. To cite a more popular recent academic to bring it up, Jordan Peterson talks about this extensively including citing trends going back to the French philosophers in the 50s. So I’m not even standing by the evidence as being true, but to say you “see none” would be more of a personal oversight than the historical truth, as many modern and well followed people do.

throwanem 6y ago
Yeah, I mean, we're a decade at this point past even Moldbug's historiography, and it's not as if he contributed any ideas that were both new and worth having; mostly he just reformulated and to some extent synthesized some very old ideas in a fashion that might find a 21st-century audience, which it more or less did. Stating the existence of such historiographies doesn't do anything to make the case for their veracity. People here in 2020 have better reasons for doubting them than simply not knowing they exist.
- nwienert 6y ago
  You’re doing a lot of hand waving. That’s not convincing. An idea that’s been around consistently, supported by a group of people for a long period of time and continually being cited with many concrete examples needs refutation more than “people have better reasons to doubt them”. Again, I’m just replying to the ridiculous original hand wave of “I don’t see it at all”. Sorry, you may disagree. But you’d have to address years and years of pretty rigorous thought that’s been put into these problems. You won’t convince anyone with appeals to authority or whatever fallacy it is to wave away things based on nothing but “2020” (thought terminating cliche, I guess).
  - throwanem 6y ago
    Claiming I'm hand-waving when I ask you to substantiate your hand-wave is a hell of a flex. You made the claim. You want to support it, okay: support it. Or if you'd rather not, that's fine too, but it doesn't get to stand unchallenged either way.
    - nwienert 6y ago
      I responded to herbstein's "I see little to no evidence of this" with a popular modern intellectual (Jordan Peterson) who has cited a ton of stuff around this. If you are too lazy to look that up, fine. You even cited another, Moldberg (not my first or hundredth choice), then hand wave something-something 2020. The only thing I refute is that there is some consensus that there definitely doesn't exist communist/communist-lite ideological trends within our country dating back decades, it most definitely isn't the consensus as Fox News would happily tell you many times a week. I'm not defending it even, I think some of it is true, some not. But... I already refuted the points I came to refute. It's not open and shut, and there exist many who see that narrative being true. If you want to get into the details, sure, we could do that. But Peterson and other right wing thinkers (Thomas Sowell comes to mind) spent a lifetime researching this and distilling it into a series of lectures and books, I'd prefer not to have to re-hash that. That you don't see that it even exists is a sign you either aren't familiar with that literature, or you are just unwilling to ackowledge it. I'm not here to prove it right, just to prove definitely that there exists many counterarguments to you/herbstein, to which you seemed unwilling to admit. -- Edit: If you want some example, we have plenty in Silicon Valley. Companies almost all promote ham-fisted affirmative action hiring policies, any speech against those policies will result in firing, public tarring, and a general ban from the industry. This Equality of Outcome policy is the dominant ideology, enforced in an authoritarian way.
      - throwanem 6y ago
        Odd that you should take the time to reply to me and not to the person who actually took the time to counter your argument in detail and with references. Why is that?
claudeganon 6y ago
Jordan Peterson obviously hasn't read most of the stuff he decries and is just recycling talking points from various anti-Semetic movements that were extended by William S. Lind and others in the context of American White Nationalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Conspiracy_th... https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/4188-the-eradication-of-talmudic-abstractions-anti-semitism-transmisogyny-and-the-national-socialist-project https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/4188-the-eradication-of-tal... Adorno, one of the founders of the Frankfurt school, for example, was quite opposed to the leftwing tendencies of the 1960s, from which much of modern "woke" culture emerged: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_W._Adorno#Confrontations_with_students https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_W._Adorno#Confrontatio... Yet Peterson has repeatedly falsely categorized him and his work as of a piece with all of this.
- nwienert 6y ago
  Adorno was just not immune to his own creation but was all for the left wing cause until then, and Lind being anti-semitic has nothing to do with what Peterson talks about.
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    > Adorno was just not immune to his own creation but was all for the left wing cause until then What was his “creation”? Or his “left wing cause”? I don’t understand what these vague gestures are supposed to indicate. I’ll again highlight that “Cultural Marxism” is rooted in various anti-Semitic and fascist ideologies. But for the record, Adorno opposed the radical student movement and had vehement disagreements with many other leftists, including his Frankfurt School peers and famously with the actual communist party official and Marxist philosopher Lukács. There’s no uniformity of thought or conspiracy as painted by those like Peterson, who just repeats these canards to people hoping they won’t engage with their origins, the actual history, or the works themselves.
    - nwienert 6y ago

throwanem 6y ago

Yeah, I mean, we're a decade at this point past even Moldbug's historiography, and it's not as if he contributed any ideas that were both new and worth having; mostly he just reformulated and to some extent synthesized some very old ideas in a fashion that might find a 21st-century audience, which it more or less did. Stating the existence of such historiographies doesn't do anything to make the case for their veracity. People here in 2020 have better reasons for doubting them than simply not knowing they exist.

nwienert 6y ago
You’re doing a lot of hand waving. That’s not convincing. An idea that’s been around consistently, supported by a group of people for a long period of time and continually being cited with many concrete examples needs refutation more than “people have better reasons to doubt them”. Again, I’m just replying to the ridiculous original hand wave of “I don’t see it at all”. Sorry, you may disagree. But you’d have to address years and years of pretty rigorous thought that’s been put into these problems. You won’t convince anyone with appeals to authority or whatever fallacy it is to wave away things based on nothing but “2020” (thought terminating cliche, I guess).
- throwanem 6y ago
  Claiming I'm hand-waving when I ask you to substantiate your hand-wave is a hell of a flex. You made the claim. You want to support it, okay: support it. Or if you'd rather not, that's fine too, but it doesn't get to stand unchallenged either way.
  - nwienert 6y ago
    I responded to herbstein's "I see little to no evidence of this" with a popular modern intellectual (Jordan Peterson) who has cited a ton of stuff around this. If you are too lazy to look that up, fine. You even cited another, Moldberg (not my first or hundredth choice), then hand wave something-something 2020. The only thing I refute is that there is some consensus that there definitely doesn't exist communist/communist-lite ideological trends within our country dating back decades, it most definitely isn't the consensus as Fox News would happily tell you many times a week. I'm not defending it even, I think some of it is true, some not. But... I already refuted the points I came to refute. It's not open and shut, and there exist many who see that narrative being true. If you want to get into the details, sure, we could do that. But Peterson and other right wing thinkers (Thomas Sowell comes to mind) spent a lifetime researching this and distilling it into a series of lectures and books, I'd prefer not to have to re-hash that. That you don't see that it even exists is a sign you either aren't familiar with that literature, or you are just unwilling to ackowledge it. I'm not here to prove it right, just to prove definitely that there exists many counterarguments to you/herbstein, to which you seemed unwilling to admit. -- Edit: If you want some example, we have plenty in Silicon Valley. Companies almost all promote ham-fisted affirmative action hiring policies, any speech against those policies will result in firing, public tarring, and a general ban from the industry. This Equality of Outcome policy is the dominant ideology, enforced in an authoritarian way.
    - throwanem 6y ago
      Odd that you should take the time to reply to me and not to the person who actually took the time to counter your argument in detail and with references. Why is that?

claudeganon 6y ago

Jordan Peterson obviously hasn't read most of the stuff he decries and is just recycling talking points from various anti-Semetic movements that were extended by William S. Lind and others in the context of American White Nationalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Conspiracy_th... https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/4188-the-eradication-of-talmudic-abstractions-anti-semitism-transmisogyny-and-the-national-socialist-project https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/4188-the-eradication-of-tal... Adorno, one of the founders of the Frankfurt school, for example, was quite opposed to the leftwing tendencies of the 1960s, from which much of modern "woke" culture emerged: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_W._Adorno#Confrontations_with_students https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_W._Adorno#Confrontatio... Yet Peterson has repeatedly falsely categorized him and his work as of a piece with all of this.

nwienert 6y ago
Adorno was just not immune to his own creation but was all for the left wing cause until then, and Lind being anti-semitic has nothing to do with what Peterson talks about.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  > Adorno was just not immune to his own creation but was all for the left wing cause until then What was his “creation”? Or his “left wing cause”? I don’t understand what these vague gestures are supposed to indicate. I’ll again highlight that “Cultural Marxism” is rooted in various anti-Semitic and fascist ideologies. But for the record, Adorno opposed the radical student movement and had vehement disagreements with many other leftists, including his Frankfurt School peers and famously with the actual communist party official and Marxist philosopher Lukács. There’s no uniformity of thought or conspiracy as painted by those like Peterson, who just repeats these canards to people hoping they won’t engage with their origins, the actual history, or the works themselves.
  - nwienert 6y ago