6 ms·

Enterprise indeed, including charging premium for features that should come by default. As someone who has to use a Mac at work, it still baffles me how macOS

Enterprise indeed, including charging premium for features that should come by default. As someone who has to use a Mac at work, it still baffles me how macOS doesn't even ship with a serious file manager by default in 2020 and every decent alternative costs decent amount of money.

Spartan-S63 6y ago
Interesting. I've never had an issue with the features of Finder. I'm a pretty light user of a file manager, though. What types of things does it not do that you want it to do?
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  It seems like Finder was designed to hide the filesystem. In a normal file manager you start in your home directory and have a toolbar at the top allowing you to easily change your current path, see where exactly on the actual filesystem hierarchy your are etc. Finder seems to like to show you what seem like various 'views' of things but these views aren't actual folders or at lest usually don't contain what you would think the folder would or it doesn't initially open where you'd expect it to, if you want to go to an actual particular folder, (once you even figure out where you are if you have any amount of complexity to your FS hierarchy), it has to be done via a nested menu item, (Go=>Go to folder), where it should be front and center, most managers have it under or as part of the menubar itself. The search doesn't seem to work much of the time, unless one uses Spotlight for everything, no dual pane support & tab support is very, very recent. Not to mention it doesn't seem to remember my view/display preferences for any length of time, doesn't have sane right click options, (it didn't even have copy paste last time I bothered to check). I am probably forgetting a bunch of things since I long switched to alternatives like Path Finder & Forklift, but of course you can't even remove it from the dock if you don't use it.
  - boardwaalk 6y ago
    > In a normal file manager you start in your home directory A new Finder window opens to the Documents folder by default, though this is configurable in preferences. You can set it to your home directory > Finder seems to like to show you what seem like various 'views' of things but these views aren't actual folders or at lest usually don't contain what you would think the folder would I've... never seen this. Are you talking about tags maybe? Or having an active search? > (once you even figure out where you are if you have any amount of complexity to your FS hierarchy) If you right click the folder name in title bar you get a list of path segments. You can also turn on 'Show Path Bar' and get a breadcrumb-style control. > it has to be done via a nested menu item, (Go=>Go to folder) There's a shortcut, cmd-shift-G, listed on that menu item. > The search doesn't seem to work much of the time Haven't had a problem with it, though I usually use find and grep on the command line. > no dual pane support You can tile two finder windows side-by-side. > tab support is very, very recent. Tab support is seven years old. > (it didn't even have copy paste last time I bothered to check). It does. It doesn't have cut and paste though, but drag and drop works to move.
    - WillPostForFood 6y ago
      It actually does have cut-paste/move: Command-c Command+Option-v
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      > You can also turn on 'Show Path Bar' and get a breadcrumb-style control. a.) Why is it not on by default? b.) I want to type in a full path in one go, not click on individual segments of one - maybe that's not really common but I tend to memorize my FS structure. > There's a shortcut, cmd-shift-G, listed on that menu item. Am aware of the shortcut, it's not quite the same, it's an extra step you have to do vs not having to do, but it's probably just a "getting used to thing". > You can tile two finder windows side-by-side. That's like saying in a browser without tabs you can just open another window. Sure you can, it takes another second or two to get it the same size, probably won't open in the same directory as the old one, the other one will loose focus as you interact with the other etc. > Tab support is seven years old. Fair. Linux had it for 2 decades, I still remember the WWDC keynote where they announced it, which is probably why in my mind it was more recent.
  - sjwright 6y ago
    Finder is, by default, designed for your grandparents. That’s fine, a few configuration changes fixes enough of these concealments, combined with memorising a few keyboard shortcuts. If I want to deal with the file system in a technical way I use the terminal. And whenever I want to bring these two worlds together, I’ll just type: open .
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      Why not have the option of both? It seems to be fairly normal on Linux.
      - sjwright 6y ago
        What do you mean "option of both"? I have both. I have Finder and I have Terminal. I have ways to jump from Terminal to Finder and from Finder to Terminal. I don't need or want a Termider or Finderminal.
  - gumby 6y ago
    > The search doesn't seem to work much of the time, unless one uses Spotlight for everything I’d say spotlights file search interface isn’t that great but the finder’s own file search (I presume uses the same md database) seems pretty good to me. > it didn't even have copy paste last time I bothered to check Actually it does, which surprises me. That’s more of a Windowsism where you select a subject and then select a verb to apply. The Mac interface has from the beginning been more about direct manipulation. I.e: when you want to move something you just grab it and move it where you want to be.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      > when you want to move something you just grab it and move it where you want to be In that case am really surprised Finder still doesn't support dual pane. Wouldn't this philosophy directly benefit?
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        You can open a new window...
        AsyncAwait 6y ago
        Which isn't equivalent to dual-pane, especially considering macOS doesn't even support proper window snapping out of the box.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      I mean, the Mac did invent copy and paste!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
ogre_codes 6y ago
> Enterprise indeed, including charging premium for features that should come by default. This doesn't make any sense. Apple has long shipped MacOS with everything included. Compared to the 12! Windows 10 editions (Home, Pro, Pro for Workstations, Enterprise, ...) MacOS is a cakewalk, particularly since Apple ditched charging for upgrades years ago. > serious file manager Huh? Finder is decent, pretty much anything it can't handle is probably best served with a proper scripting language from the command line regardless. I'm not even sure what alternatives to Finder are out there.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  There's plenty of alternatives, Forklift and Path Finder are some of my favorites, but rather pricey for what I get on Linux for free. Last time I checked Finder didn't support dual pane, (thankfully tabs were finally added very recently). It has insane context menu default, (like assigning tags is there, but Copy+Paste is not?) and to navigate to a specific folder directly, it is a nested menu item, (or a 3-key shortcut you have to remember), rather than being right in the toolbar bellow the menu as most other managers do it. But of course if one wants to do something the way Apple has not specifically said it should be used they're "holding it wrong". Don't worry, I get it. As for shipping with everything that's needed, it doesn't even have a 1st party package manager, (congrats even MS beat them to it) and homebrew isn't that great. I get it, dark mode was probably also stupid until Apple decided to finally implement it. P.S. Not a Windows fan either, so no need to spell out the various editions here.
  - mh8h 6y ago
    Commander One is decent alternative, and has a free version.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      That's nice, didn't know that one. Worth noting that you don't get things like " built-in FTP client; ability to mount MTP and iOS devices; RAR, TBZ, TGZ, 7z formats support; Dropbox integration; Terminal emulator" These are all things Linux FMs have for free, but it's a good first step for sure.
kolinko 6y ago
Having used various file managers for >10 years (NC, MC, WC, TC), a lack of good alternatives seemed painful when I switched to Mac. It turned out that Finder is actually pretty decent.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  The lack of dual pane support, no tabs for a long time as well and not having "Go to anywhere" prominently on the toolbar itself killed it for me. Also it seems to like to throw me into Recent by default rather than the home directory. I've since switched to Forklift and occasionally I'd open Path Finder but these are both not that cheap for a basic file manager.
gumby 6y ago
> it still baffles me how macOS doesn't even ship with a serious file manager by default in 2020 Serious question: what do you use it for? I rarely use the finder at all; when I do it’s for pretty trivial things that it handles just fine. Generally ls, cd, open, tar etc are enough for me. I understand a lot of people consider the Finder broken so I assume it lacks “power user” features, at least. But aren’t the power users by definition a couple of sigma out so are better served by a paid product? For example I don’t use apple’s calendar app but paid $50 for a different calendar. I wouldn’t recommend that most people do this: apple calendar is fine for the bulk of users. I just happened to have some special needs. Could your case be the same?
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  > But aren’t the power users by definition a couple of sigma out so are better served by a paid product My point was that on Linux you get the features that on macOS are paid and considered for power users for free and as standard.
google234123 6y ago
What features are you talking about?
kalleboo 6y ago
At least Finder is still better than Windows Explorer. I have no idea how anyone can get work done with that thing.
- LarvaFX 6y ago
  I feel the same.

Spartan-S63 6y ago

Interesting. I've never had an issue with the features of Finder. I'm a pretty light user of a file manager, though. What types of things does it not do that you want it to do?

AsyncAwait 6y ago
It seems like Finder was designed to hide the filesystem. In a normal file manager you start in your home directory and have a toolbar at the top allowing you to easily change your current path, see where exactly on the actual filesystem hierarchy your are etc. Finder seems to like to show you what seem like various 'views' of things but these views aren't actual folders or at lest usually don't contain what you would think the folder would or it doesn't initially open where you'd expect it to, if you want to go to an actual particular folder, (once you even figure out where you are if you have any amount of complexity to your FS hierarchy), it has to be done via a nested menu item, (Go=>Go to folder), where it should be front and center, most managers have it under or as part of the menubar itself. The search doesn't seem to work much of the time, unless one uses Spotlight for everything, no dual pane support & tab support is very, very recent. Not to mention it doesn't seem to remember my view/display preferences for any length of time, doesn't have sane right click options, (it didn't even have copy paste last time I bothered to check). I am probably forgetting a bunch of things since I long switched to alternatives like Path Finder & Forklift, but of course you can't even remove it from the dock if you don't use it.
- boardwaalk 6y ago
  > In a normal file manager you start in your home directory A new Finder window opens to the Documents folder by default, though this is configurable in preferences. You can set it to your home directory > Finder seems to like to show you what seem like various 'views' of things but these views aren't actual folders or at lest usually don't contain what you would think the folder would I've... never seen this. Are you talking about tags maybe? Or having an active search? > (once you even figure out where you are if you have any amount of complexity to your FS hierarchy) If you right click the folder name in title bar you get a list of path segments. You can also turn on 'Show Path Bar' and get a breadcrumb-style control. > it has to be done via a nested menu item, (Go=>Go to folder) There's a shortcut, cmd-shift-G, listed on that menu item. > The search doesn't seem to work much of the time Haven't had a problem with it, though I usually use find and grep on the command line. > no dual pane support You can tile two finder windows side-by-side. > tab support is very, very recent. Tab support is seven years old. > (it didn't even have copy paste last time I bothered to check). It does. It doesn't have cut and paste though, but drag and drop works to move.
  - WillPostForFood 6y ago
    It actually does have cut-paste/move: Command-c Command+Option-v
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    > You can also turn on 'Show Path Bar' and get a breadcrumb-style control. a.) Why is it not on by default? b.) I want to type in a full path in one go, not click on individual segments of one - maybe that's not really common but I tend to memorize my FS structure. > There's a shortcut, cmd-shift-G, listed on that menu item. Am aware of the shortcut, it's not quite the same, it's an extra step you have to do vs not having to do, but it's probably just a "getting used to thing". > You can tile two finder windows side-by-side. That's like saying in a browser without tabs you can just open another window. Sure you can, it takes another second or two to get it the same size, probably won't open in the same directory as the old one, the other one will loose focus as you interact with the other etc. > Tab support is seven years old. Fair. Linux had it for 2 decades, I still remember the WWDC keynote where they announced it, which is probably why in my mind it was more recent.
- sjwright 6y ago
  Finder is, by default, designed for your grandparents. That’s fine, a few configuration changes fixes enough of these concealments, combined with memorising a few keyboard shortcuts. If I want to deal with the file system in a technical way I use the terminal. And whenever I want to bring these two worlds together, I’ll just type: open .
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    Why not have the option of both? It seems to be fairly normal on Linux.
    - sjwright 6y ago
      What do you mean "option of both"? I have both. I have Finder and I have Terminal. I have ways to jump from Terminal to Finder and from Finder to Terminal. I don't need or want a Termider or Finderminal.
- gumby 6y ago
  > The search doesn't seem to work much of the time, unless one uses Spotlight for everything I’d say spotlights file search interface isn’t that great but the finder’s own file search (I presume uses the same md database) seems pretty good to me. > it didn't even have copy paste last time I bothered to check Actually it does, which surprises me. That’s more of a Windowsism where you select a subject and then select a verb to apply. The Mac interface has from the beginning been more about direct manipulation. I.e: when you want to move something you just grab it and move it where you want to be.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    > when you want to move something you just grab it and move it where you want to be In that case am really surprised Finder still doesn't support dual pane. Wouldn't this philosophy directly benefit?
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      You can open a new window...
      - AsyncAwait 6y ago
        Which isn't equivalent to dual-pane, especially considering macOS doesn't even support proper window snapping out of the box.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    I mean, the Mac did invent copy and paste!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

ogre_codes 6y ago

> Enterprise indeed, including charging premium for features that should come by default. This doesn't make any sense. Apple has long shipped MacOS with everything included. Compared to the 12! Windows 10 editions (Home, Pro, Pro for Workstations, Enterprise, ...) MacOS is a cakewalk, particularly since Apple ditched charging for upgrades years ago. > serious file manager Huh? Finder is decent, pretty much anything it can't handle is probably best served with a proper scripting language from the command line regardless. I'm not even sure what alternatives to Finder are out there.

AsyncAwait 6y ago
There's plenty of alternatives, Forklift and Path Finder are some of my favorites, but rather pricey for what I get on Linux for free. Last time I checked Finder didn't support dual pane, (thankfully tabs were finally added very recently). It has insane context menu default, (like assigning tags is there, but Copy+Paste is not?) and to navigate to a specific folder directly, it is a nested menu item, (or a 3-key shortcut you have to remember), rather than being right in the toolbar bellow the menu as most other managers do it. But of course if one wants to do something the way Apple has not specifically said it should be used they're "holding it wrong". Don't worry, I get it. As for shipping with everything that's needed, it doesn't even have a 1st party package manager, (congrats even MS beat them to it) and homebrew isn't that great. I get it, dark mode was probably also stupid until Apple decided to finally implement it. P.S. Not a Windows fan either, so no need to spell out the various editions here.
- mh8h 6y ago
  Commander One is decent alternative, and has a free version.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    That's nice, didn't know that one. Worth noting that you don't get things like " built-in FTP client; ability to mount MTP and iOS devices; RAR, TBZ, TGZ, 7z formats support; Dropbox integration; Terminal emulator" These are all things Linux FMs have for free, but it's a good first step for sure.

kolinko 6y ago

Having used various file managers for >10 years (NC, MC, WC, TC), a lack of good alternatives seemed painful when I switched to Mac. It turned out that Finder is actually pretty decent.

AsyncAwait 6y ago
The lack of dual pane support, no tabs for a long time as well and not having "Go to anywhere" prominently on the toolbar itself killed it for me. Also it seems to like to throw me into Recent by default rather than the home directory. I've since switched to Forklift and occasionally I'd open Path Finder but these are both not that cheap for a basic file manager.

gumby 6y ago

> it still baffles me how macOS doesn't even ship with a serious file manager by default in 2020 Serious question: what do you use it for? I rarely use the finder at all; when I do it’s for pretty trivial things that it handles just fine. Generally ls, cd, open, tar etc are enough for me. I understand a lot of people consider the Finder broken so I assume it lacks “power user” features, at least. But aren’t the power users by definition a couple of sigma out so are better served by a paid product? For example I don’t use apple’s calendar app but paid $50 for a different calendar. I wouldn’t recommend that most people do this: apple calendar is fine for the bulk of users. I just happened to have some special needs. Could your case be the same?

AsyncAwait 6y ago
> But aren’t the power users by definition a couple of sigma out so are better served by a paid product My point was that on Linux you get the features that on macOS are paid and considered for power users for free and as standard.

google234123 6y ago

What features are you talking about?

kalleboo 6y ago

At least Finder is still better than Windows Explorer. I have no idea how anyone can get work done with that thing.

LarvaFX 6y ago
I feel the same.