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> Illich wasn't against school per-se. There's a recording of a teacher asking how to infuse lessons from deschooling into her classroom and his response is ba

> Illich wasn't against school per-se. There's a recording of a teacher asking how to infuse lessons from deschooling into her classroom and his response is basically "you can't". He's actually a bit rude about it tbh. Illich was opposed to schooling. He would have said he was in favor of "education". Nailing down what that would mean on the scale of a society, aside from learning webs, is a bit elusive. I think Illich provided a fantastic prognosis of certain problems but didn't develop workable solutions.

marnett 6y ago
Most critical theory doesn’t come with a proposed set of workable solutions or policy suggestions. It is important to separate the expectation and allow critique to be just that. Anyhow, the first step to a solving a problem is identifying it; they need not be atomic operations.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  Critique is not helpful if you don't know anything about the feasibility of alternative approaches. "I want a pony!" is not a worthwhile critique of anything, it's merely a fallacy.
  - marnett 6y ago
    While I’ve added the critique to my reading list, I have yet to finish. I cannot speak to your claim the Illich’s critique is based on what he so desires (“I want a pony”), as opposed to describing a phenomenon of individual emptiness as a side-effect of Western institutions. I agree if his long-form critique takes the structure you claim, it is of poor quality because claiming desires in not critical of anything. However, I do disagree with your claim the critique alone is not helpful. A harsh, well formed critique is typically the very first pillar in driving change. Expecting identification and resolution in the same piece is asking too much. I would argue to say that a critique being invalidated because it somehow must include both framing and describing a phenomenon as well as suggesting changes, each weighted by their feasibility in remedying the systemic woes, is much more fallacious.
- danans 6y ago
  That would be fine if the quote didn't include this bit: "...and their improvement is made to depend on allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools, and other agencies in question." That's where he veers into making a policy recommendation (defunding social institutions), and where he is no longer engaging in critical theory but in pushing a particular policy agenda, therefore opening his critique (some of which I'd even agree with) to practical criticism from people with more skin in the game.
zozbot234 6y ago
Note that there is a robust tradition of "student-centered learning" and after-the-fact "unschooling" that does propose some worthwhile answers.

marnett 6y ago

Most critical theory doesn’t come with a proposed set of workable solutions or policy suggestions. It is important to separate the expectation and allow critique to be just that. Anyhow, the first step to a solving a problem is identifying it; they need not be atomic operations.

zozbot234 6y ago
Critique is not helpful if you don't know anything about the feasibility of alternative approaches. "I want a pony!" is not a worthwhile critique of anything, it's merely a fallacy.
- marnett 6y ago
  While I’ve added the critique to my reading list, I have yet to finish. I cannot speak to your claim the Illich’s critique is based on what he so desires (“I want a pony”), as opposed to describing a phenomenon of individual emptiness as a side-effect of Western institutions. I agree if his long-form critique takes the structure you claim, it is of poor quality because claiming desires in not critical of anything. However, I do disagree with your claim the critique alone is not helpful. A harsh, well formed critique is typically the very first pillar in driving change. Expecting identification and resolution in the same piece is asking too much. I would argue to say that a critique being invalidated because it somehow must include both framing and describing a phenomenon as well as suggesting changes, each weighted by their feasibility in remedying the systemic woes, is much more fallacious.
danans 6y ago
That would be fine if the quote didn't include this bit: "...and their improvement is made to depend on allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools, and other agencies in question." That's where he veers into making a policy recommendation (defunding social institutions), and where he is no longer engaging in critical theory but in pushing a particular policy agenda, therefore opening his critique (some of which I'd even agree with) to practical criticism from people with more skin in the game.

zozbot234 6y ago

Note that there is a robust tradition of "student-centered learning" and after-the-fact "unschooling" that does propose some worthwhile answers.