4 ms·

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wal

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” ~ Robert Anson Heinlein

mumblemumble 6y ago
Written, not by the author of Clan of the Cave Bear, but by the author of Stranger in a Strange Land. Interesting.
mikestew 6y ago
Anyone ever figure out if even Heinlein himself accomplished those skills? Because, frankly, it makes a nice trope or whatever, but I question the literal seriousness Heinlein had when he wrote that. Perhaps as an early prototype of The World's Most Interesting Man, but not to be taken as a literal bucket list.
- wittyreference 6y ago
  As an engineer and military officer that made a career of writing, was active in real estate and silver mining and politics, knowing not a single other thing about him, I assume (and I am, admittedly, erring a little on the side of generosity in my assumptions, but my goal is to aim for "is it plausible?" not "did he definitely?"): -to change a diaper -plan an invasion (navy officer) -butcher a hog -conn a ship (navy, engineer) -design a building (engineer) -write a sonnet (writer) -balance accounts (numerate) -build a wall (engineer) -set a bone -comfort the dying -take orders (officer) -give orders (officer) -cooperate (officer) -act alone (probably) -solve equations (engineer) -analyze a new problem (engineer) -pitch manure -program a computer (engineer) -cook a tasty meal -fight efficiently (officer) -die gallantly (officer) 15 / 21 ain't bad, and the remainder aren't implausible either. A little googling suggests he was born in 1907 in Missouri, so he probably gets butchering a hog and pitching manure. Cooking a tasty meal is a fairly low bar for any functioning human to meet - that's 18/21. He didn't have kids, so I'm not willing to grant him diaper-changing without a reason to. I can't find any medic training, so I won't give him setting a bone. And I'm not sure anyone knows how to comfort the dying. 18/21 is quite plausible. The remaining three are possible.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - pnathan 6y ago
    That list really irritates me. > - to change a diaper Ok? What if one never intends to have kids. > -plan an invasion For goodness' sake, why is that important outside of the military? > -butcher a hog Irrelevant to most people. > -conn a ship So? Are we in the navy or maritime service? A gent in Montana has no need of this, > -design a building Design, engineer, or build? > -write a sonnet Popular for schoolchildren. Says little. Interpretation of sonnets says more. > -balance accounts I'll give heinlein that. > -build a wall So? > -set a bone Useful enough, sure. > -comfort the dying Yeah, that's good. > -take orders Still not in the military > -give orders Still not in the military > -cooperate Sure! -act alone Sure! -solve equations What kind of equation? Arithmetic, algebra, calculus, analysis? > -analyze a new problem What kind of analysis? This is extremely specialized. > -pitch manure If manure matters in your life, otherwise: so what > -program a computer Useful to me, but not relevant to most people > -cook a tasty meal Sure. > -fight efficiently Still not in the military. > -die gallantly Baloney. The Great War should have cured him of this dream. "Heinlein really likes the military" is my take away. Most of his vaunted list is deeply irrelevant to outright obnoxious to me. It's like reading a "bet you couldn't solve these problems 1850s kids had to solve" thing. Anchored in the past and a different priority system. Should you be able to provide first aid, cook well, and work with others? Yes. Do reading, riting, and rithmatic? Yeah, sure. That's kind of what the point of the school system is for. Honestly. No one will know everything, and no one should strive to be ignorant, misanthropic, and uncultured. I could size up my life and write a similar list, but it'd only be a reflection of my priorities in life.
    - rednerrus 6y ago
      The point is that we should have the ability to be self-reliant and shouldn’t rely on school or government to set the agenda for what’s important to learn. Make your own list. Step outside the bounds of what your job is and learn some other skills. Build a deck, drift a car, deploy containers in k8s, make jam, grow a garden, fight city hall, etc. The list is irrelevant just make one.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Because, frankly, it makes a nice trope or whatever, but I question the literal seriousness Heinlein had when he wrote that. I wouldn't take anything Heinlein put in Lazarus Long’s—or any other fictional character’s—mouth as representing his simple literal view unless Heinlein also said it directly in a nonfictional context.
- QuercusMax 6y ago
  You're not far off talking about "The World's Most Interesting Man". It's a quote from Time Enough for Love, which is about Lazarus Long, a genetically modified human who lives for 2000 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Long https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Long
- danans 6y ago
  Also consider that it's not as impressive a list as it rhetorically seems. If you spit into a crowd of people at least 30 years old, you'll probably hit a person who has done at least 10 of them, maybe more.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Also he doesn't say a human should have done all of them, only that they should be able to.
    - danans 6y ago
      Which is an even lower bar, is it not?
yongjik 6y ago
Yeah, I call BS. I don't know any insect with more than half a dozen specialized roles. Mankind surpassed that before we built pyramids. Just think about how many unique professions are required before your daily job even starts to make sense. Someone is being paid to monitor a tank of fluorine compound so that it can be used to etch silicon wafers.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- sacred_numbers 6y ago
  I don't think he's saying that a single species of insect will have specialists in many different roles. I think he's saying that there are millions of species of insects and each species usually specializes in one thing so that they can survive in a specific environmental niche. I don't think specialization by humans is bad, but I agree that specialization can go too far sometimes. If the person being paid to monitor a tank of fluorine loses the ability to do their own laundry or hold a conversation because they are spending so much of their time developing fluorine tank monitoring skills it's kind of a waste. Part of the human experience is learning and doing lots of different things. Even if our economy rewards hyper-specialization that doesn't mean that a person's entire life has to be focused on their hyper-specialized job.
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  Diversification is a huge luxury, which you can afford if you are worth over a 100 mil and focus your life on being diversified. Even then it's questionable whether you are able to bring it all together ala DaVinci, Alexander, Caesar, etc. Seems we are past that point in history.
- carapace 6y ago
  That's the whole point though: you don't need "to monitor a tank of fluorine compound so that it can be used to etch silicon wafers" if you're computing with clockwork or fluidics. (I'm not knocking silicon, just pointing out that there are alternatives.) Also, humans are the only species that can run a marathon, swim a lake, and climb a tree. We are generalists.
throw1234651234 6y ago
I grew up reading books espousing this type of stuff, but the older I got, the more I realized how much of a pipe dream it is. As a kid, you think you can master everything, as an adult, you realize how much maintenance each of these skills take. So even if you "learn to fight" or "program a computer" well once, it will quickly fade if not maintained...for an hour or two a day. You can see how that short-circuits the list quickly.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  See Lafferty's The Primary Education of the Camiroi for a satire of the genre. (Carver Mead's "tall thin person", or the IBM "T-shaped" knowledge, is still possible, however.)
failuser 6y ago
Once you start digging deep enough into problems to make a difference there is not enough hours in the day to be more than a dilettante in a more than a limited set of topics. One does need some general skills, some of those listed above, but you'll definitly need first aid skills like stopping bleeding before learning how to set a bone. School is about the only place that systematically teaches general skills to everyone, not just people with paretns with enough time, skills and energy to do so or hire someone to do that for them.

mumblemumble 6y ago

Written, not by the author of Clan of the Cave Bear, but by the author of Stranger in a Strange Land. Interesting.

mikestew 6y ago

Anyone ever figure out if even Heinlein himself accomplished those skills? Because, frankly, it makes a nice trope or whatever, but I question the literal seriousness Heinlein had when he wrote that. Perhaps as an early prototype of The World's Most Interesting Man, but not to be taken as a literal bucket list.

wittyreference 6y ago
As an engineer and military officer that made a career of writing, was active in real estate and silver mining and politics, knowing not a single other thing about him, I assume (and I am, admittedly, erring a little on the side of generosity in my assumptions, but my goal is to aim for "is it plausible?" not "did he definitely?"): -to change a diaper -plan an invasion (navy officer) -butcher a hog -conn a ship (navy, engineer) -design a building (engineer) -write a sonnet (writer) -balance accounts (numerate) -build a wall (engineer) -set a bone -comfort the dying -take orders (officer) -give orders (officer) -cooperate (officer) -act alone (probably) -solve equations (engineer) -analyze a new problem (engineer) -pitch manure -program a computer (engineer) -cook a tasty meal -fight efficiently (officer) -die gallantly (officer) 15 / 21 ain't bad, and the remainder aren't implausible either. A little googling suggests he was born in 1907 in Missouri, so he probably gets butchering a hog and pitching manure. Cooking a tasty meal is a fairly low bar for any functioning human to meet - that's 18/21. He didn't have kids, so I'm not willing to grant him diaper-changing without a reason to. I can't find any medic training, so I won't give him setting a bone. And I'm not sure anyone knows how to comfort the dying. 18/21 is quite plausible. The remaining three are possible.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pnathan 6y ago
  That list really irritates me. > - to change a diaper Ok? What if one never intends to have kids. > -plan an invasion For goodness' sake, why is that important outside of the military? > -butcher a hog Irrelevant to most people. > -conn a ship So? Are we in the navy or maritime service? A gent in Montana has no need of this, > -design a building Design, engineer, or build? > -write a sonnet Popular for schoolchildren. Says little. Interpretation of sonnets says more. > -balance accounts I'll give heinlein that. > -build a wall So? > -set a bone Useful enough, sure. > -comfort the dying Yeah, that's good. > -take orders Still not in the military > -give orders Still not in the military > -cooperate Sure! -act alone Sure! -solve equations What kind of equation? Arithmetic, algebra, calculus, analysis? > -analyze a new problem What kind of analysis? This is extremely specialized. > -pitch manure If manure matters in your life, otherwise: so what > -program a computer Useful to me, but not relevant to most people > -cook a tasty meal Sure. > -fight efficiently Still not in the military. > -die gallantly Baloney. The Great War should have cured him of this dream. "Heinlein really likes the military" is my take away. Most of his vaunted list is deeply irrelevant to outright obnoxious to me. It's like reading a "bet you couldn't solve these problems 1850s kids had to solve" thing. Anchored in the past and a different priority system. Should you be able to provide first aid, cook well, and work with others? Yes. Do reading, riting, and rithmatic? Yeah, sure. That's kind of what the point of the school system is for. Honestly. No one will know everything, and no one should strive to be ignorant, misanthropic, and uncultured. I could size up my life and write a similar list, but it'd only be a reflection of my priorities in life.
  - rednerrus 6y ago
    The point is that we should have the ability to be self-reliant and shouldn’t rely on school or government to set the agenda for what’s important to learn. Make your own list. Step outside the bounds of what your job is and learn some other skills. Build a deck, drift a car, deploy containers in k8s, make jam, grow a garden, fight city hall, etc. The list is irrelevant just make one.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Because, frankly, it makes a nice trope or whatever, but I question the literal seriousness Heinlein had when he wrote that. I wouldn't take anything Heinlein put in Lazarus Long’s—or any other fictional character’s—mouth as representing his simple literal view unless Heinlein also said it directly in a nonfictional context.
QuercusMax 6y ago
You're not far off talking about "The World's Most Interesting Man". It's a quote from Time Enough for Love, which is about Lazarus Long, a genetically modified human who lives for 2000 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Long https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Long
danans 6y ago
Also consider that it's not as impressive a list as it rhetorically seems. If you spit into a crowd of people at least 30 years old, you'll probably hit a person who has done at least 10 of them, maybe more.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Also he doesn't say a human should have done all of them, only that they should be able to.
  - danans 6y ago
    Which is an even lower bar, is it not?

yongjik 6y ago

Yeah, I call BS. I don't know any insect with more than half a dozen specialized roles. Mankind surpassed that before we built pyramids. Just think about how many unique professions are required before your daily job even starts to make sense. Someone is being paid to monitor a tank of fluorine compound so that it can be used to etch silicon wafers.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sacred_numbers 6y ago
I don't think he's saying that a single species of insect will have specialists in many different roles. I think he's saying that there are millions of species of insects and each species usually specializes in one thing so that they can survive in a specific environmental niche. I don't think specialization by humans is bad, but I agree that specialization can go too far sometimes. If the person being paid to monitor a tank of fluorine loses the ability to do their own laundry or hold a conversation because they are spending so much of their time developing fluorine tank monitoring skills it's kind of a waste. Part of the human experience is learning and doing lots of different things. Even if our economy rewards hyper-specialization that doesn't mean that a person's entire life has to be focused on their hyper-specialized job.
throw1234651234 6y ago
Diversification is a huge luxury, which you can afford if you are worth over a 100 mil and focus your life on being diversified. Even then it's questionable whether you are able to bring it all together ala DaVinci, Alexander, Caesar, etc. Seems we are past that point in history.
carapace 6y ago
That's the whole point though: you don't need "to monitor a tank of fluorine compound so that it can be used to etch silicon wafers" if you're computing with clockwork or fluidics. (I'm not knocking silicon, just pointing out that there are alternatives.) Also, humans are the only species that can run a marathon, swim a lake, and climb a tree. We are generalists.

throw1234651234 6y ago

I grew up reading books espousing this type of stuff, but the older I got, the more I realized how much of a pipe dream it is. As a kid, you think you can master everything, as an adult, you realize how much maintenance each of these skills take. So even if you "learn to fight" or "program a computer" well once, it will quickly fade if not maintained...for an hour or two a day. You can see how that short-circuits the list quickly.

082349872349872 6y ago
See Lafferty's The Primary Education of the Camiroi for a satire of the genre. (Carver Mead's "tall thin person", or the IBM "T-shaped" knowledge, is still possible, however.)

failuser 6y ago

Once you start digging deep enough into problems to make a difference there is not enough hours in the day to be more than a dilettante in a more than a limited set of topics. One does need some general skills, some of those listed above, but you'll definitly need first aid skills like stopping bleeding before learning how to set a bone. School is about the only place that systematically teaches general skills to everyone, not just people with paretns with enough time, skills and energy to do so or hire someone to do that for them.