6 ms·

In Defense of Old Grumpy Guy: Get Off My Lawn

22 points by DanielBMarkham 16y ago

colanderman 16y ago
> It used to be almost your entire life was taken up simply in an effort to survive ; now most of us work 40 hours per week and it takes care of all of our needs . ...as well as the whims and fancies of the super-rich. If income disparity wasn't so high, I believe most of us would get by working significantly fewer hours per week (which could likely exacerbate some of the problems he mentions). The complexities in government that he mentions act as proverbial rocks in the stream, diverting wealth disproportionately to executives, lawyers, and bankers and keeping those "kids" busy.
gm 16y ago
I think in the article you confuse old grumpy guy with experienced guy who does not know how to interface with people. Old grumpy guy to me is someone who is unquestioning in his own views. Does not care if he's wrong and does not give the least shit about what you think or how the world is changing. "Get off my property!" while holding a shotgun sums up this guy nicely. The old grumpy guy you talk about in the article is someone different. Nobody's going to groan about scalability unless the message is delivered in an antagonizing way. In this case it _is_ the fault of the messenger.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
  - gm 16y ago
    Well, I think if Igor from your story could have done a much better job of selling his concern. And it _is_ selling, even tough you know Truth ("This damned design does not scale", for example), you still have to sell it. It matters little if you are correct if you are just going to get yourself fired (or transferred off the team) for not knowing how to sell your know-how. I say this because I face a similar situation where I am at. I am the old fart who remembers 10 MB hard disks and has a ton of experience. I am surrounded by young people who started tinkering with computers at age 7 and are very smart, though unexperienced. I've learned to frame and sell my experience to them in a way they can appreciate. I think that the key for the old guys is to not expect people to welcome your experience with open arms. You have to be wise about selling your viewpoint; and sometimes you gotta let people fall flat on their ass for the first time so they will listen to you before the second time happens.
    - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
      The question here is whether or not we look at it from Igor's standpoint, from the team's standpoint, or from the outside. From Igor's standpoint, yes, you are entirely correct. From the team's standpoint, they blew an opportunity to prevent a mistake. From the outside standpoint, it wasn't Igor or the team, it was the way they interacted with each other. Most folks only see it from the inside. Take a look at some of the comments on this page. If your model doesn't hold up well with the information you are receiving, you have a tendency not to take it so well. But overall, you have the better point: if you know something, no matter what your age, it's your responsibility to learn how to present what you know in as effective a format as possible. One of the reasons I like posting and commenting on HN, especially with things I know will tweak the crowd, is that it gives me an opportunity to practice telling folks what they don't want to hear. I'm not saying that I'm somehow enlightened and everybody else is wrong -- far from it. I'm just saying that having difficult conversations, as you point out, is a skill you can learn. It's a very valuable skill, and it takes practice.
mquander 16y ago
At the same time, the average individual's ability to commit to something of any duration has decreased dramatically. Citation? It wasn't unusual for a (home-schooled) pre-teen in the 1700s to know Greek and Latin. Bullshit. Pre-teen or not pre-teen, in the mid-1700s, the majority of Europe didn't know how to read and write. I don't think it's reasonable to make sweeping remarks like this without real statistics to back them up. I don't have many friends who sit on their ass playing WoW all day and night, and I doubt you do either. Just because these people exist doesn't mean that the whole world is going to shit at record rates.
- synnik 16y ago
  I'd recommend y'all not worry too much about the inaccuracies of his historical contexts. He actually gets to his point farther down in the article, and his point is valid.
  - mquander 16y ago
    Hah, but he added citations! I would never have had this nitpicking opportunity if I hadn't asked! I know there's a lot of evidence that increased screen time for kids is harmful for studies, so I won't begrudge that point. Let me argue a point I didn't intend to argue. Suppose the average American (just a reference class that I feel OK making guesses about) really is getting dumber, more hedonistic, and more prone to distraction. Is this going to kill us? The same technology that is causing problems for the average American is opening up awesome new opportunities for anyone who gives a shit. My life is way better than it would have been twenty years ago; I can get any book I please and it arrives instantly, or in a few days. I can take as much time as I like online and have careful conversations with smarter people than me, or collaborate with them. Anyone can self-publish anything and be judged by their peers on its merit, and I can generally go read it and judge them for myself. These are amazing changes, and it seems impossible to enable these things without enabling WoW players, cat videos, and inane soundbite banter. Do we need to try to strive to make something out of people who don't care to make anything out of themselves?
jtbigwoo 16y ago
I'm a fairly old guy and I found myself getting bored 1/3 of the way in. When we were younger, all of us ran into a grumpy old guy (or gal) and told ourselves, "No way I'll be like that." Then we get a little older and many of us realize that we're turning into that same guy. At that point we all have a choice: 1. Figure out what's important (here's a hint, it's not pre-teens learning Latin) and learn to communicate it in a manner that will actually move people to action regardless of their age. 2. Become a cranky old guy and wonder why no one appreciates your wisdom and brilliance.
cafard 16y ago
"Not trying to sound militaristic, but it used to be when a national emergency beckoned, you'd have to beat people off to keep them from volunteering. Now the volunteer is an unusual animal." Has anybody told Mr. Markham that the US has had an all-volunteer military since the 1970s, or that the biggest national emergency of all was largely met with draftees? (Also, to keep an eye out of double entendres...)
- artmageddon 16y ago
  Not to mention that because of the kind of news and images of war we can see these days, no one's exactly looking to jump into the fray so eagerly.
- jtbigwoo 16y ago
  Yeah, no one mentions this anymore, but there were huge protests against the draft for World War I. And rather than being able to rely on the volunteers, the U.S. had to draft something like 10 million men for World War II.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > there were huge protests against the draft for World War I. Wilson campaigned against the war, and then turned around and escalated. FWIW, the WWI draft protests were much less vehement than the Civil War draft protests. (Curiously, the draft protests were much worse in the NE, especially NY and NYC even more so, than the in the midwest and south.) > And rather than being able to rely on the volunteers, the U.S. had to draft something like 10 million men for World War II. Nope. WWII had a surplus of volunteers and they used the draft to manage things.
- khafra 16y ago
  > Also, to keep an eye out of double entendres... Back in his day, people didn't have such dirty minds. And if you believe that, I recommend listening to the 1958 John and Jackie song, "Little Girl."
  - JonnieCache 16y ago
dralison 16y ago
As an old guy myself (47), I've found that it's easy to get frustrated when you see youth repeating the mistakes you've made. While I've learned many things over the years that I enjoy passing on to those less experienced, the skill most valuable is the ability to convey that information in a positive and constructive way. The irony to me is that so many incredibly talented "senior" engineers and business people have awesome lessons to impart but they never acquired the gift of communications. They don't present themselves as the sage elder that deftly imparts wisdom, they feel a sense of entitlement from their age and it shows as soon as they open their mouths. That said, I really enjoyed reading your blog post Daniel.
ekidd 16y ago
It wasn't unusual for a (home-schooled) pre-teen in the 1700s to know Greek and Latin. I'd love to see some actual evidence for this. A solid command of either language would require on the rough order of 1000 hours of work (or perhaps only 350 if you had a lot of raw talent and studied effectively). This is entirely reasonable for a member of the educated classes in any era. But were ancient Latin and Greek ever common skills among your stereotypical pre-industrial dirt farmers?
- JonnieCache 16y ago
  No. The people who were being schooled in the 1700s to speak greek and latin were the children of the highest aristocracy. When talking about broad societal trends, they are irrelevant.
ojbyrne 16y ago
"Atheism is making one of it's cyclical comebacks to popularity"? That's bad? Also "Over the past couple of millennia, the amount of work required simply to live has decreased dramatically, at least in the western world. It used to be almost your entire life was taken up simply in an effort to survive; now most of us work 40 hours per week and it takes care of all of our needs." That's not really true. I suggest reading "A Farewell to Alms" (http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Alms-Brief-Economic-History/dp/0691121354 http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Alms-Brief-Economic-History/d...) A more accurate description would be something like "After several thousands of years where civilization has made life more difficult for the vast majority of people, over the last 200 years, in a few countries that have experienced the industrial revolution, the effort required to survive has returned to roughly the same level as required by paleolithic hunter-gatherers. Though with significantly longer life spans almost entirely due to a large reduction in infant and child mortality."
th 16y ago
The last quarter of this post has the real message. The first half will probably snatch most of the comments though because that's where all the controversial ramblings and historical inaccuracies are.
- DanielBMarkham 16y ago
  I debated going back and arguing each little historical point, but in fact, the response here is a wonderful example of exactly what I was saying. It doesn't matter. Just assume I'm wrong. If my information doesn't fit with a reader's model, the value of what I am saying is lost. With some types of information, there is no way to say it "the right way" -- it's just not going to fit. Perhaps 99% of that information is bad, perhaps not, but if we don't consume it, we'll never know. Several people still never got to the point of the article. So really the comments on HN work as an extended example. Very meta, and pretty neat.
  - mquander 16y ago
    "Everything is going to shit" is a much easier thing to argue about than "you should listen to critical people."
    - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
      Yeah but the point wasn't that everything is going to hell, and it wasn't that you should listen to critical people, it's that there are certain criticisms that deserve attention and concern, yet these concepts are impossible to broach with some because it becomes an assault on their way of looking at the universe. You get into endless arguments. This can be confused easily with "everything is going to hell" especially for those who don't want to acknowledge any problems at all. It's grumpy-old-man-syndrome, the other side. As I pointed out in another comment, this is a attribute of how groups of people relate to one another. Citing my personal view of things only served to frame up my suggestions in the manner I was talking about, which then caused exactly the response I mention. I think it's a facile argument to say that this is an issue about criticism only. If only it were so simple.

> It used to be almost your entire life was taken up simply in an effort to survive ; now most of us work 40 hours per week and it takes care of all of our needs . ...as well as the whims and fancies of the super-rich. If income disparity wasn't so high, I believe most of us would get by working significantly fewer hours per week (which could likely exacerbate some of the problems he mentions). The complexities in government that he mentions act as proverbial rocks in the stream, diverting wealth disproportionately to executives, lawyers, and bankers and keeping those "kids" busy.

gm 16y ago

I think in the article you confuse old grumpy guy with experienced guy who does not know how to interface with people. Old grumpy guy to me is someone who is unquestioning in his own views. Does not care if he's wrong and does not give the least shit about what you think or how the world is changing. "Get off my property!" while holding a shotgun sums up this guy nicely. The old grumpy guy you talk about in the article is someone different. Nobody's going to groan about scalability unless the message is delivered in an antagonizing way. In this case it _is_ the fault of the messenger.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
- gm 16y ago
  Well, I think if Igor from your story could have done a much better job of selling his concern. And it _is_ selling, even tough you know Truth ("This damned design does not scale", for example), you still have to sell it. It matters little if you are correct if you are just going to get yourself fired (or transferred off the team) for not knowing how to sell your know-how. I say this because I face a similar situation where I am at. I am the old fart who remembers 10 MB hard disks and has a ton of experience. I am surrounded by young people who started tinkering with computers at age 7 and are very smart, though unexperienced. I've learned to frame and sell my experience to them in a way they can appreciate. I think that the key for the old guys is to not expect people to welcome your experience with open arms. You have to be wise about selling your viewpoint; and sometimes you gotta let people fall flat on their ass for the first time so they will listen to you before the second time happens.
  - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
    The question here is whether or not we look at it from Igor's standpoint, from the team's standpoint, or from the outside. From Igor's standpoint, yes, you are entirely correct. From the team's standpoint, they blew an opportunity to prevent a mistake. From the outside standpoint, it wasn't Igor or the team, it was the way they interacted with each other. Most folks only see it from the inside. Take a look at some of the comments on this page. If your model doesn't hold up well with the information you are receiving, you have a tendency not to take it so well. But overall, you have the better point: if you know something, no matter what your age, it's your responsibility to learn how to present what you know in as effective a format as possible. One of the reasons I like posting and commenting on HN, especially with things I know will tweak the crowd, is that it gives me an opportunity to practice telling folks what they don't want to hear. I'm not saying that I'm somehow enlightened and everybody else is wrong -- far from it. I'm just saying that having difficult conversations, as you point out, is a skill you can learn. It's a very valuable skill, and it takes practice.

mquander 16y ago

At the same time, the average individual's ability to commit to something of any duration has decreased dramatically. Citation? It wasn't unusual for a (home-schooled) pre-teen in the 1700s to know Greek and Latin. Bullshit. Pre-teen or not pre-teen, in the mid-1700s, the majority of Europe didn't know how to read and write. I don't think it's reasonable to make sweeping remarks like this without real statistics to back them up. I don't have many friends who sit on their ass playing WoW all day and night, and I doubt you do either. Just because these people exist doesn't mean that the whole world is going to shit at record rates.

synnik 16y ago
I'd recommend y'all not worry too much about the inaccuracies of his historical contexts. He actually gets to his point farther down in the article, and his point is valid.
- mquander 16y ago
  Hah, but he added citations! I would never have had this nitpicking opportunity if I hadn't asked! I know there's a lot of evidence that increased screen time for kids is harmful for studies, so I won't begrudge that point. Let me argue a point I didn't intend to argue. Suppose the average American (just a reference class that I feel OK making guesses about) really is getting dumber, more hedonistic, and more prone to distraction. Is this going to kill us? The same technology that is causing problems for the average American is opening up awesome new opportunities for anyone who gives a shit. My life is way better than it would have been twenty years ago; I can get any book I please and it arrives instantly, or in a few days. I can take as much time as I like online and have careful conversations with smarter people than me, or collaborate with them. Anyone can self-publish anything and be judged by their peers on its merit, and I can generally go read it and judge them for myself. These are amazing changes, and it seems impossible to enable these things without enabling WoW players, cat videos, and inane soundbite banter. Do we need to try to strive to make something out of people who don't care to make anything out of themselves?

jtbigwoo 16y ago

I'm a fairly old guy and I found myself getting bored 1/3 of the way in. When we were younger, all of us ran into a grumpy old guy (or gal) and told ourselves, "No way I'll be like that." Then we get a little older and many of us realize that we're turning into that same guy. At that point we all have a choice: 1. Figure out what's important (here's a hint, it's not pre-teens learning Latin) and learn to communicate it in a manner that will actually move people to action regardless of their age. 2. Become a cranky old guy and wonder why no one appreciates your wisdom and brilliance.

cafard 16y ago

"Not trying to sound militaristic, but it used to be when a national emergency beckoned, you'd have to beat people off to keep them from volunteering. Now the volunteer is an unusual animal." Has anybody told Mr. Markham that the US has had an all-volunteer military since the 1970s, or that the biggest national emergency of all was largely met with draftees? (Also, to keep an eye out of double entendres...)

artmageddon 16y ago
Not to mention that because of the kind of news and images of war we can see these days, no one's exactly looking to jump into the fray so eagerly.
jtbigwoo 16y ago
Yeah, no one mentions this anymore, but there were huge protests against the draft for World War I. And rather than being able to rely on the volunteers, the U.S. had to draft something like 10 million men for World War II.
- anamax 16y ago
  > there were huge protests against the draft for World War I. Wilson campaigned against the war, and then turned around and escalated. FWIW, the WWI draft protests were much less vehement than the Civil War draft protests. (Curiously, the draft protests were much worse in the NE, especially NY and NYC even more so, than the in the midwest and south.) > And rather than being able to rely on the volunteers, the U.S. had to draft something like 10 million men for World War II. Nope. WWII had a surplus of volunteers and they used the draft to manage things.
khafra 16y ago
> Also, to keep an eye out of double entendres... Back in his day, people didn't have such dirty minds. And if you believe that, I recommend listening to the 1958 John and Jackie song, "Little Girl."
- JonnieCache 16y ago

dralison 16y ago

As an old guy myself (47), I've found that it's easy to get frustrated when you see youth repeating the mistakes you've made. While I've learned many things over the years that I enjoy passing on to those less experienced, the skill most valuable is the ability to convey that information in a positive and constructive way. The irony to me is that so many incredibly talented "senior" engineers and business people have awesome lessons to impart but they never acquired the gift of communications. They don't present themselves as the sage elder that deftly imparts wisdom, they feel a sense of entitlement from their age and it shows as soon as they open their mouths. That said, I really enjoyed reading your blog post Daniel.

ekidd 16y ago

It wasn't unusual for a (home-schooled) pre-teen in the 1700s to know Greek and Latin. I'd love to see some actual evidence for this. A solid command of either language would require on the rough order of 1000 hours of work (or perhaps only 350 if you had a lot of raw talent and studied effectively). This is entirely reasonable for a member of the educated classes in any era. But were ancient Latin and Greek ever common skills among your stereotypical pre-industrial dirt farmers?

JonnieCache 16y ago
No. The people who were being schooled in the 1700s to speak greek and latin were the children of the highest aristocracy. When talking about broad societal trends, they are irrelevant.

ojbyrne 16y ago

"Atheism is making one of it's cyclical comebacks to popularity"? That's bad? Also "Over the past couple of millennia, the amount of work required simply to live has decreased dramatically, at least in the western world. It used to be almost your entire life was taken up simply in an effort to survive; now most of us work 40 hours per week and it takes care of all of our needs." That's not really true. I suggest reading "A Farewell to Alms" (http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Alms-Brief-Economic-History/dp/0691121354 http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Alms-Brief-Economic-History/d...) A more accurate description would be something like "After several thousands of years where civilization has made life more difficult for the vast majority of people, over the last 200 years, in a few countries that have experienced the industrial revolution, the effort required to survive has returned to roughly the same level as required by paleolithic hunter-gatherers. Though with significantly longer life spans almost entirely due to a large reduction in infant and child mortality."

th 16y ago

The last quarter of this post has the real message. The first half will probably snatch most of the comments though because that's where all the controversial ramblings and historical inaccuracies are.

DanielBMarkham 16y ago
I debated going back and arguing each little historical point, but in fact, the response here is a wonderful example of exactly what I was saying. It doesn't matter. Just assume I'm wrong. If my information doesn't fit with a reader's model, the value of what I am saying is lost. With some types of information, there is no way to say it "the right way" -- it's just not going to fit. Perhaps 99% of that information is bad, perhaps not, but if we don't consume it, we'll never know. Several people still never got to the point of the article. So really the comments on HN work as an extended example. Very meta, and pretty neat.
- mquander 16y ago
  "Everything is going to shit" is a much easier thing to argue about than "you should listen to critical people."
  - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
    Yeah but the point wasn't that everything is going to hell, and it wasn't that you should listen to critical people, it's that there are certain criticisms that deserve attention and concern, yet these concepts are impossible to broach with some because it becomes an assault on their way of looking at the universe. You get into endless arguments. This can be confused easily with "everything is going to hell" especially for those who don't want to acknowledge any problems at all. It's grumpy-old-man-syndrome, the other side. As I pointed out in another comment, this is a attribute of how groups of people relate to one another. Citing my personal view of things only served to frame up my suggestions in the manner I was talking about, which then caused exactly the response I mention. I think it's a facile argument to say that this is an issue about criticism only. If only it were so simple.