3 ms·

You can expect returns, but not fix them ahead of time as what people do with interest bearing loans (i.e. usury). Loaning money for money is parasitic and immo

by apta 6y ago

You can expect returns, but not fix them ahead of time as what people do with interest bearing loans (i.e. usury). Loaning money for money is parasitic and immoral. Investing that can incur a profit or a loss is fine in general.

danans 6y ago
> You can expect returns, but not fix them ahead of time Fixing them ahead of time is an attempt to quantify risk. It doesn't eliminate risk - loan defaults happen. The riskier a loan, the higher the interest rate. As long as the lendee has the option of refinancing with another institution (i.e. there is a competitive market for loans), usury shouldn't be an issue. Usury is an issue when the lendee has no other resort due to being persona-non-grata in the credit system (i.e. people whose only option is payday loans) Without loans, there would be no way for people without extraordinary amounts of capital to purchase such basic items of modern life as a home or a car. What other mechanism do you suggest for those? Also, a lot of businesses are not public investment like technology firms, i.e. a neighborhood deli. If they have multiple investors, they are just partnerships, often with the partners in the same family. Loans are how such businesses find "investors". I'd like a world where housing (in the right place), transportation, and costs of small enterprise startup were cheap and good enough for everyone to pursue without loans, but we aren't in that world yet. Maybe some technology advancement (modular homes, self driving buses, 3d printers) will help to reduce the cost of these things such that people won't need to make such large purchases, but that's still to be seen.
- apta 6y ago
  You can try to rationalize it in any way you want, however, that does not change the fact that engaging in an interest bearing transaction is parasitic and immoral. > What other mechanism do you suggest for those? Pay in installments with 0% interest, for a reasonable period of time, not like we see today that even for auto loans they're giving them out to people who can't afford them over insane periods of time. This is a symptom of a corrupt underlying cause. The hyper capitalistic economy today is built on consumerism. Pushing people to buy things they don't need. Once we eliminate easy debt, consumerism will go down, prices will stabilize, and producers will be forced to give out 0% interest loans if they want to sell (or people can buy in cash). For small businesses, they can get investors to pitch in money in exchange for ownership of a specific percentage of the business. This way, the risk is carried by all parties, and both parties expect to either gain or lose, unlike with usurious loans.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    engaging in an interest bearing transaction is parasitic and immoral. You keep stating this, but you have not proven it.
    - apta 6y ago
      Is it not parasitic practice to feed off the needy? When a small player does it, they're called "loan sharks", when bank or the Fed does it, it's "finance".
      - beervirus 6y ago
        So when I open a savings account, I'm immorally and parasitically feeding off the poor, needy bank?
        apta 6y ago
        The bank is using your money to feed off the needy, the bank takes most of it, and gives you a small percentage of the money they made by exploiting them.

by apta 6y ago

danans 6y ago

> You can expect returns, but not fix them ahead of time Fixing them ahead of time is an attempt to quantify risk. It doesn't eliminate risk - loan defaults happen. The riskier a loan, the higher the interest rate. As long as the lendee has the option of refinancing with another institution (i.e. there is a competitive market for loans), usury shouldn't be an issue. Usury is an issue when the lendee has no other resort due to being persona-non-grata in the credit system (i.e. people whose only option is payday loans) Without loans, there would be no way for people without extraordinary amounts of capital to purchase such basic items of modern life as a home or a car. What other mechanism do you suggest for those? Also, a lot of businesses are not public investment like technology firms, i.e. a neighborhood deli. If they have multiple investors, they are just partnerships, often with the partners in the same family. Loans are how such businesses find "investors". I'd like a world where housing (in the right place), transportation, and costs of small enterprise startup were cheap and good enough for everyone to pursue without loans, but we aren't in that world yet. Maybe some technology advancement (modular homes, self driving buses, 3d printers) will help to reduce the cost of these things such that people won't need to make such large purchases, but that's still to be seen.

apta 6y ago
You can try to rationalize it in any way you want, however, that does not change the fact that engaging in an interest bearing transaction is parasitic and immoral. > What other mechanism do you suggest for those? Pay in installments with 0% interest, for a reasonable period of time, not like we see today that even for auto loans they're giving them out to people who can't afford them over insane periods of time. This is a symptom of a corrupt underlying cause. The hyper capitalistic economy today is built on consumerism. Pushing people to buy things they don't need. Once we eliminate easy debt, consumerism will go down, prices will stabilize, and producers will be forced to give out 0% interest loans if they want to sell (or people can buy in cash). For small businesses, they can get investors to pitch in money in exchange for ownership of a specific percentage of the business. This way, the risk is carried by all parties, and both parties expect to either gain or lose, unlike with usurious loans.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  engaging in an interest bearing transaction is parasitic and immoral. You keep stating this, but you have not proven it.
  - apta 6y ago
    Is it not parasitic practice to feed off the needy? When a small player does it, they're called "loan sharks", when bank or the Fed does it, it's "finance".
    - beervirus 6y ago
      So when I open a savings account, I'm immorally and parasitically feeding off the poor, needy bank?
      - apta 6y ago
        The bank is using your money to feed off the needy, the bank takes most of it, and gives you a small percentage of the money they made by exploiting them.