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It's interesting to note how little I know about pre-WWII Japan. Here's the naval treaty mentioned in passing in the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wash

by dhosek 6y ago

It's interesting to note how little I know about pre-WWII Japan. Here's the naval treaty mentioned in passing in the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Naval_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Naval_Treaty My history classes spent a lot of time on what led to Hitler and Mussolini but absolutely nothing on what led to the Japanese membership in the Axis.

pmoriarty 6y ago
If you are interested in this, I'd recommend Hardcore History's "Supernova in the East" series. Here's the first part: https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-Supernova-in-the-East-i/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-Supern...
- rgacote 6y ago
  All of the Hard Core History podcasts are incredibly informative and in-depth. Definite recommend.
RegnisGnaw 6y ago
I was raised in China and our education was almost the exact opposite. Very little on the European WWII and mostly (95%) on the evil Japanese empire.
- ci5er 6y ago
  I lived in Japan for about 10 years, and have subsequently made a lot of Chinese, HK, TW and SG friends (partly because of the businesses I have been in), and except for the TW and SG folks whose opinions seemed to be mixed by generation, there is a lot of focus in modern history education on how badly the Japanese behaved leading up to WWII and in WWII. And, fair enough! But there doesn't to be much education on any side of the aisle about the 1000-or-so years leading up to their mutual antagonism. I don't think that anyone is served by having sections of their history books snipped out - and the Japanese are no saints in this regard either. (Of course, I say this in the US, now, when some people are trying to have literature and history books snipped out)
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    There was no mutual antagonism. Japan of this period was expressly a violent, imperialist project, from its annexation of parts of China and colonizing of South Korea following the Russo-Japanese war to later invasions of modern day Taiwan and the Philippines, all of whom were ill-equipped to resist them. The Mongols tried to invade and China and Japan fought over the Korean peninsula sporadically during what we call the Middle Ages, but that's about the extent of prior regional strife.
    - ci5er 6y ago
      If you say so.
      - claudeganon 6y ago
        Its basic regional history, not my "say so." Japan had an extreme isolationist policy for the two hundred years leading up until the Meiji Restoration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku The Qing dynasty was on its last legs, following the disruption of the Opium wars, the chaos of the Taiping and Boxer rebellions, and the nascent, internal modernization movements. The independence of Korea's Joeson dynasty was put to an end when Yi Un was put under Japanese control by Ito Hirobumi in 1907. Taiwan quickly transitioned from being a Chinese Vassal state to a Japanese one. The Philippines had been colonized by the Spanish for a few hundred years, then the Americans in the period leading up to the war. They were able to so quickly build an empire because the countries around them were in a poor position to resist their sudden outburst of aggression.
      - valuearb 6y ago
        You really should read some Japanese history about pre WW2, even back to the Restoration on late 1800s. Japan was very aggressive militarily, and assassination attempts against leaders not deemed to be in line with that were common. The “Supernova in the East” podcasts might be a good start.
        ci5er 6y ago
claudeganon 6y ago
Prewar Japan was among the most intellectually vibrant, politically diverse, and artistically challenging cultures of the 20th century. This book is a great portrait of the period: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674021297 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674021297 The primary problem with why the country devolved into fascism is that democracy was never really expanded, allowing wealthy, right wing cadres to capture exclusive control of state power and outlaw political inclusion of their opponents (several left wing parties were made illegal following universal male enfranchisement in the late 1920s). But there was actually widespread internal opposition to the Japanese imperial project, well into the 1930s, until fascists used violence, imprisonment, and intimidation of its leadership to stop it.
- ideals 6y ago
  This sounds harrowingly similar to current US trajectory
  - Stupulous 6y ago
    I think you may be overreacting to the current state of affairs. We have a right-wing Senate, a left-wing House, a rather balanced (slightly right) Supreme Court, and a right-wing Executive. 5 years ago we had a left-wing Senate, right-wing House, balanced (I think slightly left) Supreme Court, and left-wing Executive. Obviously vote, but I think it's a pretty sure win for the left in the Executive here in a few months. Outlook is pretty good for the left in congress. I find it hard to foresee right-wing fascism taking control and illegalizing the left in the near future. Of course we should always be concerned about fascism because it has devastating and existential consequences. But I don't see cause for alarmism now, and every false alarm weakens the call to action when it is needed. For now it seems like voting works.
    - valuearb 6y ago
      The Whitehouse, the Senate and the House of Representatives are nearly a lock to be controlled by the Democratic part at year end. Trump always had a tough uphill battle to ever be re-elected (worse poll numbers in modern history) but the Coronavirus has made reelection nearly impossible.
_bxg1 6y ago
I had the same experience. We went into great detail on how the events of WWI set the stage for Hitler to take power, etc, but then it was always just "and Japan jumped on board too". It's eerie reading about a populist/fascist minority gradually radicalizing others under a promise to "return the country to its roots", militant groups inciting chaos to justify martial law, etc. A little bit too familiar.
- learn_more 6y ago
  What threats motivated the populists of the 1930s? What motivates them today? Were/are any of their concerns valid? If you want better answers than "Japan jumped on board too", you must ask yourself those questions as well.
ci5er 6y ago
The short version: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o
_tik_ 6y ago
I learned Japan History mostly from manga. I learned a lot from Rurouni Kenshin (samurai-x in anime).

by dhosek 6y ago

pmoriarty 6y ago

If you are interested in this, I'd recommend Hardcore History's "Supernova in the East" series. Here's the first part: https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-Supernova-in-the-East-i/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-Supern...

rgacote 6y ago
All of the Hard Core History podcasts are incredibly informative and in-depth. Definite recommend.

RegnisGnaw 6y ago

I was raised in China and our education was almost the exact opposite. Very little on the European WWII and mostly (95%) on the evil Japanese empire.

ci5er 6y ago
I lived in Japan for about 10 years, and have subsequently made a lot of Chinese, HK, TW and SG friends (partly because of the businesses I have been in), and except for the TW and SG folks whose opinions seemed to be mixed by generation, there is a lot of focus in modern history education on how badly the Japanese behaved leading up to WWII and in WWII. And, fair enough! But there doesn't to be much education on any side of the aisle about the 1000-or-so years leading up to their mutual antagonism. I don't think that anyone is served by having sections of their history books snipped out - and the Japanese are no saints in this regard either. (Of course, I say this in the US, now, when some people are trying to have literature and history books snipped out)
- claudeganon 6y ago
  There was no mutual antagonism. Japan of this period was expressly a violent, imperialist project, from its annexation of parts of China and colonizing of South Korea following the Russo-Japanese war to later invasions of modern day Taiwan and the Philippines, all of whom were ill-equipped to resist them. The Mongols tried to invade and China and Japan fought over the Korean peninsula sporadically during what we call the Middle Ages, but that's about the extent of prior regional strife.
  - ci5er 6y ago
    If you say so.
    - claudeganon 6y ago
      Its basic regional history, not my "say so." Japan had an extreme isolationist policy for the two hundred years leading up until the Meiji Restoration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku The Qing dynasty was on its last legs, following the disruption of the Opium wars, the chaos of the Taiping and Boxer rebellions, and the nascent, internal modernization movements. The independence of Korea's Joeson dynasty was put to an end when Yi Un was put under Japanese control by Ito Hirobumi in 1907. Taiwan quickly transitioned from being a Chinese Vassal state to a Japanese one. The Philippines had been colonized by the Spanish for a few hundred years, then the Americans in the period leading up to the war. They were able to so quickly build an empire because the countries around them were in a poor position to resist their sudden outburst of aggression.
    - valuearb 6y ago
      You really should read some Japanese history about pre WW2, even back to the Restoration on late 1800s. Japan was very aggressive militarily, and assassination attempts against leaders not deemed to be in line with that were common. The “Supernova in the East” podcasts might be a good start.
      - ci5er 6y ago

claudeganon 6y ago

Prewar Japan was among the most intellectually vibrant, politically diverse, and artistically challenging cultures of the 20th century. This book is a great portrait of the period: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674021297 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674021297 The primary problem with why the country devolved into fascism is that democracy was never really expanded, allowing wealthy, right wing cadres to capture exclusive control of state power and outlaw political inclusion of their opponents (several left wing parties were made illegal following universal male enfranchisement in the late 1920s). But there was actually widespread internal opposition to the Japanese imperial project, well into the 1930s, until fascists used violence, imprisonment, and intimidation of its leadership to stop it.

ideals 6y ago
This sounds harrowingly similar to current US trajectory
- Stupulous 6y ago
  I think you may be overreacting to the current state of affairs. We have a right-wing Senate, a left-wing House, a rather balanced (slightly right) Supreme Court, and a right-wing Executive. 5 years ago we had a left-wing Senate, right-wing House, balanced (I think slightly left) Supreme Court, and left-wing Executive. Obviously vote, but I think it's a pretty sure win for the left in the Executive here in a few months. Outlook is pretty good for the left in congress. I find it hard to foresee right-wing fascism taking control and illegalizing the left in the near future. Of course we should always be concerned about fascism because it has devastating and existential consequences. But I don't see cause for alarmism now, and every false alarm weakens the call to action when it is needed. For now it seems like voting works.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    The Whitehouse, the Senate and the House of Representatives are nearly a lock to be controlled by the Democratic part at year end. Trump always had a tough uphill battle to ever be re-elected (worse poll numbers in modern history) but the Coronavirus has made reelection nearly impossible.

_bxg1 6y ago

I had the same experience. We went into great detail on how the events of WWI set the stage for Hitler to take power, etc, but then it was always just "and Japan jumped on board too". It's eerie reading about a populist/fascist minority gradually radicalizing others under a promise to "return the country to its roots", militant groups inciting chaos to justify martial law, etc. A little bit too familiar.

learn_more 6y ago
What threats motivated the populists of the 1930s? What motivates them today? Were/are any of their concerns valid? If you want better answers than "Japan jumped on board too", you must ask yourself those questions as well.

ci5er 6y ago

The short version: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o

_tik_ 6y ago

I learned Japan History mostly from manga. I learned a lot from Rurouni Kenshin (samurai-x in anime).