8 ms·

Torvalds clearly does not understand the brutality of business. Intel does not care at all about customers it have at the moment. Because they have them by the

by 0xFFC 6y ago

Torvalds clearly does not understand the brutality of business. Intel does not care at all about customers it have at the moment. Because they have them by the balls. After many years of struggle only Apple (with its unlimited resource) was able to switch to ARM. So they don’t care. They only care about long term market, which is HPC and ML workloads. Because Nvidia is destroying anybody in that market. Look at their stock. I’ve got a news for Torvalds, it going to get bad for Intel.

cameldrv 6y ago
If there were ever a time where Intel had its customers by the balls the least in the past twenty years, it's now. AMD is extremely competitive in the server and desktop space, ARM/Apple is becoming competitive in the laptop space, Intel has no product in the phone/tablet space, and they are noncompetitive in the HPC/DL accelerator space. If there's anything that has typified Intel in the past decade it's a generalized failure to execute. There's been very little innovation in the core product since Haswell in 2013.
- DubiousPusher 6y ago
  Yeah for anyone who was a computer enthusiast in the 90s and 00s the rise of ARM has been an astonishing development comparable to the ubiquity of Linux and decline of Windows.
  - Koshkin 6y ago
    > ubiquity of Linux and decline of Windows Should I read this as sarcasm?
    - ardy42 6y ago
      >> ubiquity of Linux and decline of Windows > Should I read this as sarcasm? It could only be sarcastic if he's referring to "Linux on the desktop." I don't have any numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was correct about servers.
      - DubiousPusher 6y ago
        Correct. I am referring to everything except desktop computing. I can see how this would be confusing as I was just referencing desktop prossesor market patterns of the 90s/00s. But I do think Windows's position in the desktop space is somewhat unsustainable at this point. I personally prefer Windows but I just don't see how a heterogenous user interface experience (with users on iOS and Android for mobile and Windows for desktop) will abide for long. I think it's only a matter of time before mobile OSes make some serious inroads to desktop. Though I suppose Google has been salivating at that thought for neaely a decade.
      - cameldrv 6y ago
        If you look at the overall "computing devices with a reasonably high performance CPU" market, Linux has won the server market, and through Android, won the phone/tablet market. If you squint a bit, you can lump MacOS and iOS in this in that they have a Unix core and use a lot of the same software stack as Linux. 50 years ago, IBM owned the computing market with mainframes. They still dominate the mainframe market, that's just become a smaller and smaller portion of the overall computing market as time has gone on.
    - macintux 6y ago
      In both the server and especially mobile space Windows has lost its mojo and Linux has been a beneficiary.
    - RodgerTheGreat 6y ago
      Linux is ubiquitous. It runs on embedded devices, cell phones, and tablets which surround us. Linux runs most of the computers which underpin websites and services we interact with daily, and it is the only serious choice for HPC. A few people even run it on their laptops. Windows has declined. It is still used extensively, but Microsoft no longer dictates the browser market. Microsoft Office is commonplace, but has genuine marketshare competition in alternatives like Google Docs. Developers increasingly build "desktop" applications as web-based or multiplatform-first instead of Windows-exclusive, with the notable exception of AAA games. The Linux subsystem for Windows is a direct admission by Microsoft that developers want to work with Linux-based software for many tasks.
      - TwoBit 6y ago
        I think he interpreted the statement as meaning linux displacing Windows on desktop, which isn't happening. Phones are displacing Windows on desktop.
- trekrich 6y ago
  Then its only a matter of time before they go bankrupt.
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    They have the cash to get out of this if they make the right moves.
    - mindcrime 6y ago
      Exactly. A single well-time and well-executed acquisition could change the whole game. Of course we all know that executing acquisitions well is easier said than done, and I don't have a specific target in mind when I say this. It's more of an "in principle" speculation than a concrete suggestion at the moment.
      - rorykoehler 6y ago
        Softbank are looking to sell some or all of their ARM holdings.
  - dathinab 6y ago
    Very unlikely. Just because they are no longer "without alternatives" in many use-cases (for business customers) doesn't mean they go bankrupt. They will just lose money and maybe shrink a bit. Also thy are in many other areas then just CPU's including FPGA and hard drives.
- cbsks 6y ago
  > Intel has no product in the phone/tablet space To be pedantic, Intel does have phone and tablet processors. This doesn't invalidate your point however. I can't easily find a breakdown of mobile cpu market share but I am guessing Intel isn't doing very well. https://www.intel.in/content/www/in/en/products/devices-systems/smartphones.html https://www.intel.in/content/www/in/en/products/devices-syst... https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/devices-systems/tablets.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/devices-sys...
  - toast0 6y ago
    They canceled the atom for phones product. Right around the time that Microsoft announced the Continuum feature of Windows Phone 10 that gave a desktop(ish) experience when docked, and would have been perfect with an x86 phone. :(
happytoexplain 6y ago
The amoral mechanisms of business do not obviate criticisms that are independent of their bottom line, and this simple fact will not be unmade by any amount of the constant and fallacious insistence that people who make such criticisms "don't understand business".
dathinab 6y ago
> Because they have them by the balls. Not really, like you mentioned in some ML/HPC contexts GPU computing with commonly Nvidia GPU is a better solution in the desktop marked AMD's recent CPU's are viable alternatives and that also applies for many usages in the server marked. And on mobile, well Intel CPUs never did really compete. Same for game consoles. Oh and for low power embedded systems it's often ARM and for thinks which also need GPU (self driving cars) it's ARM+Nvidea. I mean sure parts of server the server marked are build on things like Intels (not so) secure enclave and then for some gaming workloads Intel CPU's still beat AMD and for not supper expensive software dev. workstations Intel also still is the best choice as the current CPU+embedded GPU chips from AMD for desktop still use their old CPU. Through on thing which shouldn't be forgotten is that they have their hands in a lot of other things including: - FPGA, if you use certain ML algorithm a lot putting them onto a FPGA can be a massive power and time saver. So the Intel CPU + FPGA are quite interesting for such cases. - Graphics, Intel is about to bring out a dedicated graphic card. Probably not interesting for high end usages but it might be a use-full solution for budged setups or GPU servers (It's often monetary better to have multiple smaller cards then one big cards, it's not uncommon for GPU server to have Nvidea 2080ties instead of Quadros etc.). - Hard drives, Optan "SSD" are not very well marked but while they are not necessary the fastest SSD's they have good latencies which can make them preferable for some use-cases. - ... Another thing which can be beneficial for them in the coming 10 years is that they do not depend on TSCM. One funny thing I noticed is that Intel can build a good part of a computer today: CPU + GPU + Motherboard + Network Card + Drives + FPGA + OS (Clear Linux), so add RAM, PSU, Cooling, Cables & Case and you have a Intel only desktop ;-)
- cma 6y ago
  Intel also own 20% or so of the optics company TSMC relies on for deep UV lithography.

by 0xFFC 6y ago

cameldrv 6y ago

If there were ever a time where Intel had its customers by the balls the least in the past twenty years, it's now. AMD is extremely competitive in the server and desktop space, ARM/Apple is becoming competitive in the laptop space, Intel has no product in the phone/tablet space, and they are noncompetitive in the HPC/DL accelerator space. If there's anything that has typified Intel in the past decade it's a generalized failure to execute. There's been very little innovation in the core product since Haswell in 2013.

DubiousPusher 6y ago
Yeah for anyone who was a computer enthusiast in the 90s and 00s the rise of ARM has been an astonishing development comparable to the ubiquity of Linux and decline of Windows.
- Koshkin 6y ago
  > ubiquity of Linux and decline of Windows Should I read this as sarcasm?
  - ardy42 6y ago
    >> ubiquity of Linux and decline of Windows > Should I read this as sarcasm? It could only be sarcastic if he's referring to "Linux on the desktop." I don't have any numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was correct about servers.
    - DubiousPusher 6y ago
      Correct. I am referring to everything except desktop computing. I can see how this would be confusing as I was just referencing desktop prossesor market patterns of the 90s/00s. But I do think Windows's position in the desktop space is somewhat unsustainable at this point. I personally prefer Windows but I just don't see how a heterogenous user interface experience (with users on iOS and Android for mobile and Windows for desktop) will abide for long. I think it's only a matter of time before mobile OSes make some serious inroads to desktop. Though I suppose Google has been salivating at that thought for neaely a decade.
    - cameldrv 6y ago
      If you look at the overall "computing devices with a reasonably high performance CPU" market, Linux has won the server market, and through Android, won the phone/tablet market. If you squint a bit, you can lump MacOS and iOS in this in that they have a Unix core and use a lot of the same software stack as Linux. 50 years ago, IBM owned the computing market with mainframes. They still dominate the mainframe market, that's just become a smaller and smaller portion of the overall computing market as time has gone on.
  - macintux 6y ago
    In both the server and especially mobile space Windows has lost its mojo and Linux has been a beneficiary.
  - RodgerTheGreat 6y ago
    Linux is ubiquitous. It runs on embedded devices, cell phones, and tablets which surround us. Linux runs most of the computers which underpin websites and services we interact with daily, and it is the only serious choice for HPC. A few people even run it on their laptops. Windows has declined. It is still used extensively, but Microsoft no longer dictates the browser market. Microsoft Office is commonplace, but has genuine marketshare competition in alternatives like Google Docs. Developers increasingly build "desktop" applications as web-based or multiplatform-first instead of Windows-exclusive, with the notable exception of AAA games. The Linux subsystem for Windows is a direct admission by Microsoft that developers want to work with Linux-based software for many tasks.
    - TwoBit 6y ago
      I think he interpreted the statement as meaning linux displacing Windows on desktop, which isn't happening. Phones are displacing Windows on desktop.
trekrich 6y ago
Then its only a matter of time before they go bankrupt.
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  They have the cash to get out of this if they make the right moves.
  - mindcrime 6y ago
    Exactly. A single well-time and well-executed acquisition could change the whole game. Of course we all know that executing acquisitions well is easier said than done, and I don't have a specific target in mind when I say this. It's more of an "in principle" speculation than a concrete suggestion at the moment.
    - rorykoehler 6y ago
      Softbank are looking to sell some or all of their ARM holdings.
- dathinab 6y ago
  Very unlikely. Just because they are no longer "without alternatives" in many use-cases (for business customers) doesn't mean they go bankrupt. They will just lose money and maybe shrink a bit. Also thy are in many other areas then just CPU's including FPGA and hard drives.
cbsks 6y ago
> Intel has no product in the phone/tablet space To be pedantic, Intel does have phone and tablet processors. This doesn't invalidate your point however. I can't easily find a breakdown of mobile cpu market share but I am guessing Intel isn't doing very well. https://www.intel.in/content/www/in/en/products/devices-systems/smartphones.html https://www.intel.in/content/www/in/en/products/devices-syst... https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/devices-systems/tablets.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/devices-sys...
- toast0 6y ago
  They canceled the atom for phones product. Right around the time that Microsoft announced the Continuum feature of Windows Phone 10 that gave a desktop(ish) experience when docked, and would have been perfect with an x86 phone. :(

happytoexplain 6y ago

The amoral mechanisms of business do not obviate criticisms that are independent of their bottom line, and this simple fact will not be unmade by any amount of the constant and fallacious insistence that people who make such criticisms "don't understand business".

dathinab 6y ago

> Because they have them by the balls. Not really, like you mentioned in some ML/HPC contexts GPU computing with commonly Nvidia GPU is a better solution in the desktop marked AMD's recent CPU's are viable alternatives and that also applies for many usages in the server marked. And on mobile, well Intel CPUs never did really compete. Same for game consoles. Oh and for low power embedded systems it's often ARM and for thinks which also need GPU (self driving cars) it's ARM+Nvidea. I mean sure parts of server the server marked are build on things like Intels (not so) secure enclave and then for some gaming workloads Intel CPU's still beat AMD and for not supper expensive software dev. workstations Intel also still is the best choice as the current CPU+embedded GPU chips from AMD for desktop still use their old CPU. Through on thing which shouldn't be forgotten is that they have their hands in a lot of other things including: - FPGA, if you use certain ML algorithm a lot putting them onto a FPGA can be a massive power and time saver. So the Intel CPU + FPGA are quite interesting for such cases. - Graphics, Intel is about to bring out a dedicated graphic card. Probably not interesting for high end usages but it might be a use-full solution for budged setups or GPU servers (It's often monetary better to have multiple smaller cards then one big cards, it's not uncommon for GPU server to have Nvidea 2080ties instead of Quadros etc.). - Hard drives, Optan "SSD" are not very well marked but while they are not necessary the fastest SSD's they have good latencies which can make them preferable for some use-cases. - ... Another thing which can be beneficial for them in the coming 10 years is that they do not depend on TSCM. One funny thing I noticed is that Intel can build a good part of a computer today: CPU + GPU + Motherboard + Network Card + Drives + FPGA + OS (Clear Linux), so add RAM, PSU, Cooling, Cables & Case and you have a Intel only desktop ;-)

cma 6y ago
Intel also own 20% or so of the optics company TSMC relies on for deep UV lithography.