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> I genuinely do not understand how someone could possibly claim that simply acknowledging that a victim has influence on their situation is already victim blam

• leotaku 6y ago
  > The dangerous neighborhood example is such a classic that it's easy to find. Items 5 and 9 on this list: I think you understand why citing a list tangentially related statements with entirely different intent and basically no other information will not change my mind. If you don't, please re-read my previous comments. > No it won't. I have given a statement, which in my understanding is consistent with the modern understanding of radicalisation, that argues that it does. I'm in no way an expert but I would appreciate a better response than "No". > What you are advocating for is tone policing. You are claiming that reasonable outrage is going to radicalize people and therefor people should not express anger when they have every right to be angry. "If she had calmed down, I wouldn't have hit her". Classic abuser and oppressor excuse. This argument relies on the premise that I am a bad-faith actor. I am not. The abuser would have hit her regardless, I am actually interested in having a discussion. Also, you yourself state how hard it is to pinpoint appropriate outrage. > People should listen to outrage and fix things before it's too late. That onus is on the oppressor. Exactly what I've said all along. You fail to argue that this means that outrage is necessary in all forms of discussion and that an outrage-free environment is inherently oppressive. I'm not saying it's the end-all solution, but certainly seems like a better idea than an environment where any group or group of groups is the arbiter of appropriate outrage.
  • tchaffee 6y ago
    > I think you understand why citing a list tangentially related statements with entirely different intent And yet you cited an article on divorce which had little to do with the topic. When I challenged that, you dug in harder and quoted much of the article. The article I had already read in its entirety. At which point I just stopped even discussing that point. My list did not have different intent. It directly addressed your claim that "I genuinely do not understand how someone could possibly claim...". It's not only possible to claim. It's pretty common to claim. The article gave concrete examples of how what you were doing is exactly victim blaming with your neighborhood example. The neighborhood example is so common you can find it in multiple articles. People who are oppressed are already victims. And you are blaming them for not being polite enough about their outrage. That the victims are the ones who are creating more racism by being outraged. It's their fault that they are radicalizing people. I'm not sure how you can blame a victim for making the problem worse and then say it's not victim blaming. > which in my understanding is consistent with the modern understanding of radicalisation You are the one who made the original claim that it radicalizes people so the burden of proof is on you. I did not just say no. I followed that with a persuasive argument. Which is the same as you have been doing: trying to persuade without evidence. At this point you should provide sources that anger about oppression is causing radicalization in others. > This argument relies on the premise that I am a bad-faith actor. People can in good faith be guilty of tone policing. > The abuser would have hit her regardless, Exactly! The radical would have become radicalized regardless. Well done! > you yourself state how hard it is to pinpoint appropriate outrage. Sure. That is the challenge. If we agree on that, then we agree that outrage in some cases is appropriate. I could end there because that pretty much summarizes my entire argument: outrage is sometimes appropriate. > You fail to argue that this means that outrage is necessary in all forms of discussion That's a strawman. I never claimed it's necessary in all forms of discussion, and I don't believe it is. There is a price you pay when you censor outrage. And you simply have to decide if what you get in return is worth that price. > an outrage-free environment is inherently oppressive It helps maintain the status-quo. If the status-quo oppresses people, then it is by definition oppressive to those people. In a society that had no racial injustice you wouldn't need to censor outrage about racial injustice. That outrage would be rare and seem weird when it happens. > certainly seems like a better idea than an environment where any group or group of groups is the arbiter of appropriate outrage. If you are not oppressed by society, an ivory tower like HN is pretty amazing. And I never suggested that any group should be an arbiter of appropriate outrage. What I said is that the challenge is a difficult one. I don't have answers around that. I can still point out that lacking such answers any forum that censors outrage is an ivory tower.
• leotaku 6y ago
  I think we're talking about too many nuanced issues now. The last few messages have been entirely "I said, you said" and we even have seemed to hit a reply limit. I'll admit that I have probably not considered your arguments clearly because of my previous biases. But I am also going to claim that you may have done the same. (If you don't that's fine, I am absolutely not trying to gaslight here.) I'll try to address some final points. > Thats's a strawman. I never claimed it's necessary in all forms of discussion, and I don't believe it is. I went of your statement "I'm not sure how you have a civil discussion about inhumane acts that are supported by an oppressive system" in your original post. To me it implied that you think an entirely civil discussion of any form about certain issues is not desirable. > And yet you cited an article on divorce which had little to do with the topic. When I challenged that, you dug in harder and quoted much of the article. I simply wanted to give context to why I quoted the article. I did not want to imply that you had not read or understood the article. Sorry, bad call. > You are the one who made the original claim that it radicalizes people so the burden of proof is on you. I would cite the concepts of "Personal grievance" and "Group grievance" with regard to radicalization. > People who are oppressed are already victims. And you are blaming them for not being polite enough about their outrage. That the victims are the ones who are creating more racism by being outraged. It's their fault that they are radicalizing people. I'm not sure how you can blame a victim for making the problem worse and then say it's not victim blaming. Point taken. Again I do not want to put blame on these victims. I just want to point out that their behavior might have unintended consequences and an environment that allows them to express their grievances without possibly making things worse for themselves would be better. I realize that achieving such an environment might be an impossibly hard task - I accept that when done badly it could make things worse even for them - but I refuse to accept that trying to do so is to be dismissed as victim blaming. EDIT: It seems the reply limit isn't actually a thing. It must have been a visual bug at my end.