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The only grime I have to pick with this article is it's applicability to all groups. The ability to behave as a jerk or be unlikeable without experiencing retal

by ny2ko 6y ago

The only grime I have to pick with this article is it's applicability to all groups. The ability to behave as a jerk or be unlikeable without experiencing retaliation (not simply push back) is a privilege that a lot of underrepresented minorities don't have

ngngngng 6y ago
> underrepresented minorities To paraphrase Brene Brown, any conversation on privilege that excludes class is bullshit. The ability to be unlikable without it ruining your life (never mind using it to your advantage) is largely a privilege of class. No one in 2020 is immune to being "cancelled". But if you have money, it won't ruin your life.
- coffeemaniac 6y ago
  I don't think OP's comment was meant to dismiss any effects of class intersection, and in fact any serious analysis will account for that significant overlap.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  The list of "non-cognitive" soft skills in one of yesterday's posts contains a substantial number that could be described as "being likeable", and I supposed that made them parochially targeted at children who will need to have a middle-class job: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23809211 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23809211 As far as cancellation being a 2020 thing, Orwell observed in 1948 that: "As a rule, luckily, there is more than one group, but also at any given moment there is a dominant orthodoxy, to offend against which needs a thick skin and sometimes means cutting one's income in half for years on end." http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part50 http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part50 Diogenes: eating lentils Aristippus: You know, if you learned to be ingratiating to the king, you wouldn't have to continue eating lentils. Diogenes: chewing If you learned to eat lentils, you wouldn't have to continue to ingratiate yourself to the king.
- ny2ko 6y ago
  Fair enough. I was thinking on it from a work perspective and did make an incorrect assumption that the vast majority of people in the meeting rooms were in similar classes
- diffrinse 6y ago
  Ehhh, it's specifically the case that the fall from middle-class to poor is steeper for Black folk for what should be obvious reasons. Most of our middle class comes from our working class rather than inheriting the position [0] [0]https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/01/15/five-bleak-facts-on-black-opportunity/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/01...
waheoo 6y ago
What privileged people get away with being jerks without retaliation?
- uberman 6y ago
  (IMHO) White men get away with being authoritarian jerks in much larger numbers than other categories. This is not to say that all white men are jerks or that some who are are not also called out as such. Nor is this a suggestion that being an authoritarian jerk and being respected for it or getting away with it or given a pass for it is exclusive to white men.
  - Minor49er 6y ago
    This is going to be a tough claim to prove
    - uberman 6y ago
      I can accept that. I edited my post to indicate that it is my opinion. That said, I think (again my opinion) that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the behaviors that are deemed to be bold, authoritative, disruptive and direct even bordering on hostile when displayed by men in the workplace are tolerated or even rewarded while such behavior displayed by women are not. "He" will be the tolerated jerk, the lone wolf who plays be his own rules and get things done. "She" will be the office bitch who no one wants to work with. Again my opinion based on experience working with fortune 100 companies, public and private universities, and at a half-dozen startups. Edited to Add: I did a quick search and found this: "Untangling the relationship between gender and leadership" https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/GM-09-2013-0114/full/html https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/GM-09-20... I'm imagine there are counter examples, but this study seems to confirm my personal observations: "women leaders who go against the typical gender stereotype might be penalized"
      - waheoo 6y ago
        > deemed to be bold, authoritative, disruptive and direct even bordering on hostile Im not sure where any of that results in you being a jerk. In your own words, its also just your perspective or "deemed" by you. You know the lone wolf is just a moniker for office expeletive who no one wants to work with right? Whether that behaviour is tolerated and condoned seems to have little to do with gender and more to do with your perception and yoyr employers willingness to keep either of these people around I'd want them both to walk. Im all for introverts working in silos with infrequent checkins if thats how they perform but I have zero tolerance for people who lack basic empathy for others. But thats a but off topic. My point is those thigs dont make one a jerk. Abrasive maybe, but I wouldnt call it a "problem". Maybe something they can work on personally? But not something that deserves retaliation thats for sure.

by ny2ko 6y ago

ngngngng 6y ago

> underrepresented minorities To paraphrase Brene Brown, any conversation on privilege that excludes class is bullshit. The ability to be unlikable without it ruining your life (never mind using it to your advantage) is largely a privilege of class. No one in 2020 is immune to being "cancelled". But if you have money, it won't ruin your life.

coffeemaniac 6y ago
I don't think OP's comment was meant to dismiss any effects of class intersection, and in fact any serious analysis will account for that significant overlap.
082349872349872 6y ago
The list of "non-cognitive" soft skills in one of yesterday's posts contains a substantial number that could be described as "being likeable", and I supposed that made them parochially targeted at children who will need to have a middle-class job: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23809211 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23809211 As far as cancellation being a 2020 thing, Orwell observed in 1948 that: "As a rule, luckily, there is more than one group, but also at any given moment there is a dominant orthodoxy, to offend against which needs a thick skin and sometimes means cutting one's income in half for years on end." http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part50 http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part50 Diogenes: eating lentils Aristippus: You know, if you learned to be ingratiating to the king, you wouldn't have to continue eating lentils. Diogenes: chewing If you learned to eat lentils, you wouldn't have to continue to ingratiate yourself to the king.
ny2ko 6y ago
Fair enough. I was thinking on it from a work perspective and did make an incorrect assumption that the vast majority of people in the meeting rooms were in similar classes
diffrinse 6y ago
Ehhh, it's specifically the case that the fall from middle-class to poor is steeper for Black folk for what should be obvious reasons. Most of our middle class comes from our working class rather than inheriting the position [0] [0]https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/01/15/five-bleak-facts-on-black-opportunity/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/01...

waheoo 6y ago

What privileged people get away with being jerks without retaliation?

uberman 6y ago
(IMHO) White men get away with being authoritarian jerks in much larger numbers than other categories. This is not to say that all white men are jerks or that some who are are not also called out as such. Nor is this a suggestion that being an authoritarian jerk and being respected for it or getting away with it or given a pass for it is exclusive to white men.
- Minor49er 6y ago
  This is going to be a tough claim to prove
  - uberman 6y ago
    I can accept that. I edited my post to indicate that it is my opinion. That said, I think (again my opinion) that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the behaviors that are deemed to be bold, authoritative, disruptive and direct even bordering on hostile when displayed by men in the workplace are tolerated or even rewarded while such behavior displayed by women are not. "He" will be the tolerated jerk, the lone wolf who plays be his own rules and get things done. "She" will be the office bitch who no one wants to work with. Again my opinion based on experience working with fortune 100 companies, public and private universities, and at a half-dozen startups. Edited to Add: I did a quick search and found this: "Untangling the relationship between gender and leadership" https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/GM-09-2013-0114/full/html https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/GM-09-20... I'm imagine there are counter examples, but this study seems to confirm my personal observations: "women leaders who go against the typical gender stereotype might be penalized"
    - waheoo 6y ago
      > deemed to be bold, authoritative, disruptive and direct even bordering on hostile Im not sure where any of that results in you being a jerk. In your own words, its also just your perspective or "deemed" by you. You know the lone wolf is just a moniker for office expeletive who no one wants to work with right? Whether that behaviour is tolerated and condoned seems to have little to do with gender and more to do with your perception and yoyr employers willingness to keep either of these people around I'd want them both to walk. Im all for introverts working in silos with infrequent checkins if thats how they perform but I have zero tolerance for people who lack basic empathy for others. But thats a but off topic. My point is those thigs dont make one a jerk. Abrasive maybe, but I wouldnt call it a "problem". Maybe something they can work on personally? But not something that deserves retaliation thats for sure.