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> That's victim blaming. And definitely not appropriate when we are talking about society oppressing someone. No one person can control society. And if you belo

> That's victim blaming. And definitely not appropriate when we are talking about society oppressing someone. No one person can control society. And if you belong to a minority, the group you belong to has a much smaller voice when it comes to influencing society. I genuinely do not understand how someone could possibly claim that simply acknowledging that a victim has influence on their situation is already victim blaming. It's horrible that people even have to think about how best avoid being victimized, yes totally. They should not have to. But that does not mean it should be impermissible to suggest ways they can act in their best interest. > You keep saying that it creates more members of a radical group, but that's not true. No one becomes the member of a radical group just because someone else is outraged that they are suffering from injustice. I'm not convinced. Many people convert to radical groups because they feel ostracized by the mainstream. Screaming "FUCK YOU RACIST! GO DIE" at a forum poster will only push them further right. Engaging with "I think you are mistaken, here is why" might cause them to reconsider at least part of their worldview. > And history says you are wrong. From the American Revolutionary war, to the Civil War, the the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s, and to today's black lives matter movement what we have seen is the opposite: the more outrage there is over social injustice the more people eventually decide that the injustice we tolerated in the past is no longer acceptable. Would you disagree that there might be a better way of achieving change than letting it spiral into an all-out war? That seems a bit accelerationionist-y and I presume that's not what you actually want. > We are on our way to fixing things. I think your optimism is a bit premature.

tchaffee 6y ago
> I genuinely do not understand how someone could possibly claim that simply acknowledging that a victim has influence on their situation is already victim blaming. The dangerous neighborhood example is such a classic that it's easy to find. Items 5 and 9 on this list: https://msmagazine.com/2013/05/28/rape-splaining-10-examples-of-victim-blaming/ https://msmagazine.com/2013/05/28/rape-splaining-10-examples... > Screaming "FUCK YOU RACIST! GO DIE" at a forum poster will only push them further right. No it won't. What you are advocating for is tone policing. You are claiming that reasonable outrage is going to radicalize people and therefor people should not express anger when they have every right to be angry. "If she had calmed down, I wouldn't have hit her". Classic abuser and oppressor excuse. > Would you disagree that there might be a better way of achieving change than letting it spiral into an all-out war? Yes there is a better way. People should listen to outrage and fix things before it's too late. That onus is on the oppressor. Exactly what I've said all along. > I think your optimism is a bit premature. Time will tell. When formerly silent conservatives start joining progressives and all are with one voice saying "we must fix this", it's a damn good sign.
- leotaku 6y ago
  > The dangerous neighborhood example is such a classic that it's easy to find. Items 5 and 9 on this list: I think you understand why citing a list tangentially related statements with entirely different intent and basically no other information will not change my mind. If you don't, please re-read my previous comments. > No it won't. I have given a statement, which in my understanding is consistent with the modern understanding of radicalisation, that argues that it does. I'm in no way an expert but I would appreciate a better response than "No". > What you are advocating for is tone policing. You are claiming that reasonable outrage is going to radicalize people and therefor people should not express anger when they have every right to be angry. "If she had calmed down, I wouldn't have hit her". Classic abuser and oppressor excuse. This argument relies on the premise that I am a bad-faith actor. I am not. The abuser would have hit her regardless, I am actually interested in having a discussion. Also, you yourself state how hard it is to pinpoint appropriate outrage. > People should listen to outrage and fix things before it's too late. That onus is on the oppressor. Exactly what I've said all along. You fail to argue that this means that outrage is necessary in all forms of discussion and that an outrage-free environment is inherently oppressive. I'm not saying it's the end-all solution, but certainly seems like a better idea than an environment where any group or group of groups is the arbiter of appropriate outrage.
  - tchaffee 6y ago
    > I think you understand why citing a list tangentially related statements with entirely different intent And yet you cited an article on divorce which had little to do with the topic. When I challenged that, you dug in harder and quoted much of the article. The article I had already read in its entirety. At which point I just stopped even discussing that point. My list did not have different intent. It directly addressed your claim that "I genuinely do not understand how someone could possibly claim...". It's not only possible to claim. It's pretty common to claim. The article gave concrete examples of how what you were doing is exactly victim blaming with your neighborhood example. The neighborhood example is so common you can find it in multiple articles. People who are oppressed are already victims. And you are blaming them for not being polite enough about their outrage. That the victims are the ones who are creating more racism by being outraged. It's their fault that they are radicalizing people. I'm not sure how you can blame a victim for making the problem worse and then say it's not victim blaming. > which in my understanding is consistent with the modern understanding of radicalisation You are the one who made the original claim that it radicalizes people so the burden of proof is on you. I did not just say no. I followed that with a persuasive argument. Which is the same as you have been doing: trying to persuade without evidence. At this point you should provide sources that anger about oppression is causing radicalization in others. > This argument relies on the premise that I am a bad-faith actor. People can in good faith be guilty of tone policing. > The abuser would have hit her regardless, Exactly! The radical would have become radicalized regardless. Well done! > you yourself state how hard it is to pinpoint appropriate outrage. Sure. That is the challenge. If we agree on that, then we agree that outrage in some cases is appropriate. I could end there because that pretty much summarizes my entire argument: outrage is sometimes appropriate. > You fail to argue that this means that outrage is necessary in all forms of discussion That's a strawman. I never claimed it's necessary in all forms of discussion, and I don't believe it is. There is a price you pay when you censor outrage. And you simply have to decide if what you get in return is worth that price. > an outrage-free environment is inherently oppressive It helps maintain the status-quo. If the status-quo oppresses people, then it is by definition oppressive to those people. In a society that had no racial injustice you wouldn't need to censor outrage about racial injustice. That outrage would be rare and seem weird when it happens. > certainly seems like a better idea than an environment where any group or group of groups is the arbiter of appropriate outrage. If you are not oppressed by society, an ivory tower like HN is pretty amazing. And I never suggested that any group should be an arbiter of appropriate outrage. What I said is that the challenge is a difficult one. I don't have answers around that. I can still point out that lacking such answers any forum that censors outrage is an ivory tower.

tchaffee 6y ago

> I genuinely do not understand how someone could possibly claim that simply acknowledging that a victim has influence on their situation is already victim blaming. The dangerous neighborhood example is such a classic that it's easy to find. Items 5 and 9 on this list: https://msmagazine.com/2013/05/28/rape-splaining-10-examples-of-victim-blaming/ https://msmagazine.com/2013/05/28/rape-splaining-10-examples... > Screaming "FUCK YOU RACIST! GO DIE" at a forum poster will only push them further right. No it won't. What you are advocating for is tone policing. You are claiming that reasonable outrage is going to radicalize people and therefor people should not express anger when they have every right to be angry. "If she had calmed down, I wouldn't have hit her". Classic abuser and oppressor excuse. > Would you disagree that there might be a better way of achieving change than letting it spiral into an all-out war? Yes there is a better way. People should listen to outrage and fix things before it's too late. That onus is on the oppressor. Exactly what I've said all along. > I think your optimism is a bit premature. Time will tell. When formerly silent conservatives start joining progressives and all are with one voice saying "we must fix this", it's a damn good sign.

leotaku 6y ago
> The dangerous neighborhood example is such a classic that it's easy to find. Items 5 and 9 on this list: I think you understand why citing a list tangentially related statements with entirely different intent and basically no other information will not change my mind. If you don't, please re-read my previous comments. > No it won't. I have given a statement, which in my understanding is consistent with the modern understanding of radicalisation, that argues that it does. I'm in no way an expert but I would appreciate a better response than "No". > What you are advocating for is tone policing. You are claiming that reasonable outrage is going to radicalize people and therefor people should not express anger when they have every right to be angry. "If she had calmed down, I wouldn't have hit her". Classic abuser and oppressor excuse. This argument relies on the premise that I am a bad-faith actor. I am not. The abuser would have hit her regardless, I am actually interested in having a discussion. Also, you yourself state how hard it is to pinpoint appropriate outrage. > People should listen to outrage and fix things before it's too late. That onus is on the oppressor. Exactly what I've said all along. You fail to argue that this means that outrage is necessary in all forms of discussion and that an outrage-free environment is inherently oppressive. I'm not saying it's the end-all solution, but certainly seems like a better idea than an environment where any group or group of groups is the arbiter of appropriate outrage.
- tchaffee 6y ago
  > I think you understand why citing a list tangentially related statements with entirely different intent And yet you cited an article on divorce which had little to do with the topic. When I challenged that, you dug in harder and quoted much of the article. The article I had already read in its entirety. At which point I just stopped even discussing that point. My list did not have different intent. It directly addressed your claim that "I genuinely do not understand how someone could possibly claim...". It's not only possible to claim. It's pretty common to claim. The article gave concrete examples of how what you were doing is exactly victim blaming with your neighborhood example. The neighborhood example is so common you can find it in multiple articles. People who are oppressed are already victims. And you are blaming them for not being polite enough about their outrage. That the victims are the ones who are creating more racism by being outraged. It's their fault that they are radicalizing people. I'm not sure how you can blame a victim for making the problem worse and then say it's not victim blaming. > which in my understanding is consistent with the modern understanding of radicalisation You are the one who made the original claim that it radicalizes people so the burden of proof is on you. I did not just say no. I followed that with a persuasive argument. Which is the same as you have been doing: trying to persuade without evidence. At this point you should provide sources that anger about oppression is causing radicalization in others. > This argument relies on the premise that I am a bad-faith actor. People can in good faith be guilty of tone policing. > The abuser would have hit her regardless, Exactly! The radical would have become radicalized regardless. Well done! > you yourself state how hard it is to pinpoint appropriate outrage. Sure. That is the challenge. If we agree on that, then we agree that outrage in some cases is appropriate. I could end there because that pretty much summarizes my entire argument: outrage is sometimes appropriate. > You fail to argue that this means that outrage is necessary in all forms of discussion That's a strawman. I never claimed it's necessary in all forms of discussion, and I don't believe it is. There is a price you pay when you censor outrage. And you simply have to decide if what you get in return is worth that price. > an outrage-free environment is inherently oppressive It helps maintain the status-quo. If the status-quo oppresses people, then it is by definition oppressive to those people. In a society that had no racial injustice you wouldn't need to censor outrage about racial injustice. That outrage would be rare and seem weird when it happens. > certainly seems like a better idea than an environment where any group or group of groups is the arbiter of appropriate outrage. If you are not oppressed by society, an ivory tower like HN is pretty amazing. And I never suggested that any group should be an arbiter of appropriate outrage. What I said is that the challenge is a difficult one. I don't have answers around that. I can still point out that lacking such answers any forum that censors outrage is an ivory tower.