6 ms·

Could be, could also be they did not understand how to configure Linux, would like to see something more concrete to back such a claim up. Personally I'm skepti

Could be, could also be they did not understand how to configure Linux, would like to see something more concrete to back such a claim up. Personally I'm skeptical that it is the case.

gtirloni 6y ago
> could also be they did not understand how to configure Linux They hired Brendan Gregg [0] so I think they know what's going on. 0 - http://www.brendangregg.com/ http://www.brendangregg.com/
- jaekash 6y ago
  AFAIK Netflix has used FreeBSD since 2012[1] and Brendan Gregg only started working at FreeBSD in 2014[2]. So not sure what the point of your statement is. [1]: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-June/068129.html https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-June... [2]: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendangregg/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendangregg/
dijit 6y ago
Even if that’s true then it remains a failing of the Linux ecosystem that they were unable to understand how to configure it correctly or that the defaults did not work as well as the FreeBSD ones. But I don’t think it’s the case as they’ve put a lot of work into hiring some of the brightest minds in OS development, including Brendan Gregg http://www.brendangregg.com/ http://www.brendangregg.com/
- jaekash 6y ago
  > Even if that’s true then it remains a failing of the Linux ecosystem that they were unable to understand how to configure it correctly or that the defaults did not work as well as the FreeBSD ones. Or alternatively they just did not put the time in. No defaults cover all use cases, almost all software I have ever used in high load applications needed some tuning, this includes Solaris, MySQL and MongoDB among others. > But I don’t think it’s the case as they’ve put a lot of work into hiring some of the brightest minds in OS development, including Brendan Gregg AFAIK Netflix has used FreeBSD since 2012[1] and Brendan Gregg only started working at FreeBSD in 2014[2]. So not sure this really shows they knew what they were doing when they made the choice to go with FreeBSD. It could be they did but I still would like to something more than just Netflix's choice to back the claim up. Many more companies choose Linux. [1]: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-June/068129.html https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-June... [2]: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendangregg/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendangregg/
  - effie 6y ago
    Interesting, according to this presentation from 2013 there were several reasons to use BSD, but network speed is not among them. https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.pdf https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.p...
    - jaekash 6y ago
      This presentation also makes no indication that FreeBSD was chosen because it had better performance than Linux: https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 Seems GPL already ruled Linux out.
aduitsis 6y ago
Don't be. You are talking about the folks that pulled this off: https://people.freebsd.org/~gallatin/talks/euro2019.pdf https://people.freebsd.org/~gallatin/talks/euro2019.pdf
- jaekash 6y ago
  7 years or more after choosing FreeBSD. This in no way vouches for their expertise in 2012.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
hylaride 6y ago
I think that the engineers at Netflix "could figure it out". As a long time BSD fan (since 1998) who has had to accept the fact that Linux won out in the end, I can vouch that by far the biggest pain point on Linux is its networking stack. Whenever I have to do anything other than set an IP address I throw up in my mouth a little bit. Linux has/had its benefits (packaging, install base), but IPTables or its routing configuration isn't one of them. High performance is certainly achievable, but it has a lot of quirks. BSD's networking stack has always been more robust. Anybody who's worked heavily with both will tell you that. It did not surprise me one bit that the primary reason they chose FreeBSD over Linux for their CDN was networking. Juniper came to the same conclusion, on top of licensing reasons.
- jaekash 6y ago
  > I think that the engineers at Netflix "could figure it out". And I would still like to see some evidence. > Whenever I have to do anything other than set an IP address I throw up in my mouth a little bit. Very compelling case you make there.
  - hylaride 6y ago
    > And I would still like to see some evidence. There are plenty of talks, papers, etc from both Juniper, Netflix, etc on why they made their choices, but your response is merely "could also be they did not understand how to configure Linux" without any evidence. We're not going to do your googling for you. > Very compelling case you make there. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hyperbole https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hyperbole
    - jaekash 6y ago
      > There are plenty of talks, papers, etc from both Juniper, Netflix, etc on why they made their choices, but your response is merely "could also be they did not understand how to configure Linux" without any evidence. Here are the only sources I could find that gave some reasons for Netflix's choice: - https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.pdf https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.p... - https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 Neither of them suggest FreeBSD was faster than Linux in their tests. From both of those sources I would say avoiding GPL was the primary consideration. If there is something to back your claim up, link to it. If you cannot link to it then how the heck do you expect me to find it. I'm not the person claiming it exists.
doublerabbit 6y ago
The telecommunications company I am currently employed for uses FreeBSD for the backhaul applied with CG-NAT. And this is for the simple reason that the Linux stack couldn't keep up with the load.
Annatar 6y ago
If FreeBSD performed better out of the box without needing as much or no tuning at all, then it's the better tool for the job, specifically their job.
- jaekash 6y ago
  Maybe, still no evidence to back the speculation up.
  - Annatar 6y ago
    They have both Linux and FreeBSD, yet FreeBSD is the one they still use for streaming. A Linux-biased and centric shop like Netflix would ditch FreeBSD the first chance they had if it weren't better at it than Linux.
    - jaekash 6y ago
      Both of these things suggest they had many other reasons to chose FreeBSD, and neither suggests FreeBSD was faster than Linux: - https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.pdf https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.p... - https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 Seems GPL was a problem for them. EDIT: another source suggesting GPL avoidance was the primary reason for choosing FreeBSD over Linux: https://youtu.be/vcyQBup-Gto?t=2731 https://youtu.be/vcyQBup-Gto?t=2731 - and the presenter also says that the performance comparisons they have done between Linux and FreeBSD is not exactly fair because they did not do all the engineering work on Linux that they did on FreeBSD.

Could be, could also be they did not understand how to configure Linux, would like to see something more concrete to back such a claim up. Personally I'm skeptical that it is the case.

gtirloni 6y ago

> could also be they did not understand how to configure Linux They hired Brendan Gregg [0] so I think they know what's going on. 0 - http://www.brendangregg.com/ http://www.brendangregg.com/

jaekash 6y ago
AFAIK Netflix has used FreeBSD since 2012[1] and Brendan Gregg only started working at FreeBSD in 2014[2]. So not sure what the point of your statement is. [1]: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-June/068129.html https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-June... [2]: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendangregg/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendangregg/

dijit 6y ago

Even if that’s true then it remains a failing of the Linux ecosystem that they were unable to understand how to configure it correctly or that the defaults did not work as well as the FreeBSD ones. But I don’t think it’s the case as they’ve put a lot of work into hiring some of the brightest minds in OS development, including Brendan Gregg http://www.brendangregg.com/ http://www.brendangregg.com/

jaekash 6y ago
> Even if that’s true then it remains a failing of the Linux ecosystem that they were unable to understand how to configure it correctly or that the defaults did not work as well as the FreeBSD ones. Or alternatively they just did not put the time in. No defaults cover all use cases, almost all software I have ever used in high load applications needed some tuning, this includes Solaris, MySQL and MongoDB among others. > But I don’t think it’s the case as they’ve put a lot of work into hiring some of the brightest minds in OS development, including Brendan Gregg AFAIK Netflix has used FreeBSD since 2012[1] and Brendan Gregg only started working at FreeBSD in 2014[2]. So not sure this really shows they knew what they were doing when they made the choice to go with FreeBSD. It could be they did but I still would like to something more than just Netflix's choice to back the claim up. Many more companies choose Linux. [1]: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-June/068129.html https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-June... [2]: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendangregg/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendangregg/
- effie 6y ago
  Interesting, according to this presentation from 2013 there were several reasons to use BSD, but network speed is not among them. https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.pdf https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.p...
  - jaekash 6y ago
    This presentation also makes no indication that FreeBSD was chosen because it had better performance than Linux: https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 Seems GPL already ruled Linux out.

aduitsis 6y ago

Don't be. You are talking about the folks that pulled this off: https://people.freebsd.org/~gallatin/talks/euro2019.pdf https://people.freebsd.org/~gallatin/talks/euro2019.pdf

jaekash 6y ago
7 years or more after choosing FreeBSD. This in no way vouches for their expertise in 2012.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

hylaride 6y ago

I think that the engineers at Netflix "could figure it out". As a long time BSD fan (since 1998) who has had to accept the fact that Linux won out in the end, I can vouch that by far the biggest pain point on Linux is its networking stack. Whenever I have to do anything other than set an IP address I throw up in my mouth a little bit. Linux has/had its benefits (packaging, install base), but IPTables or its routing configuration isn't one of them. High performance is certainly achievable, but it has a lot of quirks. BSD's networking stack has always been more robust. Anybody who's worked heavily with both will tell you that. It did not surprise me one bit that the primary reason they chose FreeBSD over Linux for their CDN was networking. Juniper came to the same conclusion, on top of licensing reasons.

jaekash 6y ago
> I think that the engineers at Netflix "could figure it out". And I would still like to see some evidence. > Whenever I have to do anything other than set an IP address I throw up in my mouth a little bit. Very compelling case you make there.
- hylaride 6y ago
  > And I would still like to see some evidence. There are plenty of talks, papers, etc from both Juniper, Netflix, etc on why they made their choices, but your response is merely "could also be they did not understand how to configure Linux" without any evidence. We're not going to do your googling for you. > Very compelling case you make there. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hyperbole https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hyperbole
  - jaekash 6y ago
    > There are plenty of talks, papers, etc from both Juniper, Netflix, etc on why they made their choices, but your response is merely "could also be they did not understand how to configure Linux" without any evidence. Here are the only sources I could find that gave some reasons for Netflix's choice: - https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.pdf https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.p... - https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 Neither of them suggest FreeBSD was faster than Linux in their tests. From both of those sources I would say avoiding GPL was the primary consideration. If there is something to back your claim up, link to it. If you cannot link to it then how the heck do you expect me to find it. I'm not the person claiming it exists.

doublerabbit 6y ago

The telecommunications company I am currently employed for uses FreeBSD for the backhaul applied with CG-NAT. And this is for the simple reason that the Linux stack couldn't keep up with the load.

Annatar 6y ago

If FreeBSD performed better out of the box without needing as much or no tuning at all, then it's the better tool for the job, specifically their job.

jaekash 6y ago
Maybe, still no evidence to back the speculation up.
- Annatar 6y ago
  They have both Linux and FreeBSD, yet FreeBSD is the one they still use for streaming. A Linux-biased and centric shop like Netflix would ditch FreeBSD the first chance they had if it weren't better at it than Linux.
  - jaekash 6y ago
    Both of these things suggest they had many other reasons to chose FreeBSD, and neither suggests FreeBSD was faster than Linux: - https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.pdf https://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/Netflix-BSDCan-20130515.p... - https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 https://youtu.be/KP_bKvXkoC4?t=732 Seems GPL was a problem for them. EDIT: another source suggesting GPL avoidance was the primary reason for choosing FreeBSD over Linux: https://youtu.be/vcyQBup-Gto?t=2731 https://youtu.be/vcyQBup-Gto?t=2731 - and the presenter also says that the performance comparisons they have done between Linux and FreeBSD is not exactly fair because they did not do all the engineering work on Linux that they did on FreeBSD.