4 ms·

The ecosystem, i.e. Spring.

emerongi 6y ago
Oof, there are people out there that like to work with Spring? The over-engineering in the Java ecosystem has wasted more of my time than saved it.
- The_rationalist 6y ago
  The learning curve should be beaten after a few weeks and is definitely lower than learning rust. On the other hand, the productivity and expressiveness return on investment is huge. Spring is arguably the state of the art framework on the server and is integrated with so many powerful technologies.
  - wtetzner 6y ago
    > On the other hand, the productivity and expressiveness return on investment is huge. Spring is arguably the state of the art framework on the server and is integrated with so many powerful technologies. Having worked with Spring for years (and still working with it, unfortunately), I have found exactly the opposite. It does way too much dynamically, making debugging hard and rendering the type-system almost useless. Sure, it comes with a lot of libraries for handling a large varieties of tasks, but they all seem to be half-assed, and much of the time I either have to work around their limitations or write something myself anyway. I really don't see why the same thing couldn't have been achieved by writing a bunch of useful libraries that don't depend on a dependency injection framework (which I also don't find much value in). Finally, it takes forever to startup, making testing a pain. It even means that JUnit tests are slow.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Yes, although on my case it is JEE actually. That over-engineering is what save us from clunky solutions that are good for hello world applications and HN like posts, but fail when doing deployments across heterogeneous platforms on Fortune 500 IT departments with endless number of external contractors and technology stacks hardly seen elsewhere. And if I have to pick between managing WebSphere containers and taking care of k8s, I will rather pick WebSphere.
deleted 6y ago
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im3w1l 6y ago
I have not used spring and only ever seen hate for it. Would be nice to read a pro-spring article or similar.
- deleuze 6y ago
  It's like any framework: once you learn it's idioms, you can be insanely productive. Unlike other frameworks, enterprise Java is all about flexibility, so in Spring land, it's often in incredible easy to tune or replace lower level components like connection pools, etc. As such, I'd describe it as a good combination of highly dynamic architecture with lots of manual control. Of course, all of this is enabled with copious amounts of magic, which is usually why people don't like Spring.

Oof, there are people out there that like to work with Spring? The over-engineering in the Java ecosystem has wasted more of my time than saved it.

The_rationalist 6y ago
The learning curve should be beaten after a few weeks and is definitely lower than learning rust. On the other hand, the productivity and expressiveness return on investment is huge. Spring is arguably the state of the art framework on the server and is integrated with so many powerful technologies.
- wtetzner 6y ago
  > On the other hand, the productivity and expressiveness return on investment is huge. Spring is arguably the state of the art framework on the server and is integrated with so many powerful technologies. Having worked with Spring for years (and still working with it, unfortunately), I have found exactly the opposite. It does way too much dynamically, making debugging hard and rendering the type-system almost useless. Sure, it comes with a lot of libraries for handling a large varieties of tasks, but they all seem to be half-assed, and much of the time I either have to work around their limitations or write something myself anyway. I really don't see why the same thing couldn't have been achieved by writing a bunch of useful libraries that don't depend on a dependency injection framework (which I also don't find much value in). Finally, it takes forever to startup, making testing a pain. It even means that JUnit tests are slow.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
pjmlp 6y ago
Yes, although on my case it is JEE actually. That over-engineering is what save us from clunky solutions that are good for hello world applications and HN like posts, but fail when doing deployments across heterogeneous platforms on Fortune 500 IT departments with endless number of external contractors and technology stacks hardly seen elsewhere. And if I have to pick between managing WebSphere containers and taking care of k8s, I will rather pick WebSphere.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

im3w1l 6y ago

I have not used spring and only ever seen hate for it. Would be nice to read a pro-spring article or similar.

deleuze 6y ago
It's like any framework: once you learn it's idioms, you can be insanely productive. Unlike other frameworks, enterprise Java is all about flexibility, so in Spring land, it's often in incredible easy to tune or replace lower level components like connection pools, etc. As such, I'd describe it as a good combination of highly dynamic architecture with lots of manual control. Of course, all of this is enabled with copious amounts of magic, which is usually why people don't like Spring.