7 ms·

Against School - John Taylor Gatto

82 points by yters 16y ago

pero 16y ago
His magnum opus: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/ http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/ (free read)
fleitz 16y ago
If you ever get the chance to read Weapons of Mass Instruction by John Taylor Gatto I highly suggest it, it's very eye opening as to the origins and reasons for mandatory schooling. Also when reading John Taylor Gatto, please ensure you do not conflate schooling with education. You'll not like him very much if you conflate the two. Unless you really are against education, in that case please reply :)
- tomjen3 16y ago
  I already read The Underground History of American Education. Is it worth reading Weapons of Mass Instruction too? Not that it greatly matters, of course, since there is absolutely nothing I can do about it as I have already decided not to have kids.
  - bmj 16y ago
    Why? There are plenty of home/un-schooling groups that you could assist even though you don't have kids.
  - gallamine 16y ago
    I had the distinct privilege of being home-educated, and never darkening the door of a government run primary school. My parent's resolve in doing this was largely influenced by Mr. Gatto. There is hope.
  - fleitz 16y ago
    Not sure haven't read that work of his. Right now I'm finishing off Disabling Professions by Ivan Illich which looks at how professions are a continuation of the learned helplessness that schooling helps to instill.
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    "I already read The Underground History of American Education. Is it worth reading Weapons of Mass Instruction too?" No. Weapons of Mass Instruction is basically just excerpts from Underground History. I think there are a few new things, but mostly what happened is that the publisher for Underground History backed out once they read the book, which left Gatto allowed to self publish it himself but unable to find another publishing deal. So Weapons of Mass instruction was basically just him going out and repackaging Underground History and publishing the best of it.
    - euroclydon 16y ago
      I imagine any publisher would have strong disincentive to publish UHAE. He has few good things to say about the scholastic publishing houses.
  - JabavuAdams 16y ago
    You can mentor someone else's kids. It needn't be formal.
djm 16y ago
Those who enjoy reading John Taylor Gatto may also like to read a great little book called "The teenage liberation handbook" by grace Llewellyn. It's that book you read as an adult and wish you'd read as a teenager.
InclinedPlane 16y ago
The fact that home schooled children often end up having a higher quality of education regardless of the educational levels of the parents seems to me a pretty damning indictment of the public school system in general. There is this perception (backed by laws, regulations, and taxes) that there is a specific and elevated set of skills necessary to be a teacher, however all of the evidence seems to indicate this isn't the case.
- noahc 16y ago
  Do you have a source for this?
  - Duff 16y ago
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/30/home-schooling-outstanding-results-national-tests/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/30/home-schooli... "Five areas of academic pursuit were measured. In reading, the average home-schooler scored at the 89th percentile; language, 84th percentile; math, 84th percentile; science, 86th percentile; and social studies, 84th percentile. In the core studies (reading, language and math), the average home-schooler scored at the 88th percentile. The average public school student taking these standardized tests scored at the 50th percentile in each subject area." If you look at results from alternative schools like Montessori schools, you usually find similar results. It's not magic -- I enjoyed school but recognize in retrospect that it was an awful experience in many ways that instilled bad habits.
    - moxiemk1 16y ago
      As usual, causation is not correlation, and consciously deciding to take your children out of public schools and either homeschool them or put them in an alternative school show's a significant amount more involvement in your child's life than is the norm. Also, that study was produced by an organization, (http://www.nheri.org/ http://www.nheri.org/) that is specifically dedicated to producing studies about homeschooling. The titles of their reports all allude to defending the idea of homeschooling, and they put out guides to putting it into practice. The children for the study were "almost 12,000 home-school students from all 50 states who took three well-known standardized achievements tests", which aren't required for children to take, unless possibly if they live in Iowa or California. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that poorly performing homeschooled children would not take these tests, since they have nothing to gain from them. For what it's worth, all the anecdotal evidence I have from growing up and knowing a number of home-schooled children, it's certainly not guaranteed to work better than public schools, and I've never met an intelligent, thoughtful person to come out of it. Not that amazingly smart people can't result, but I've never met them, and I feel like that's the attitude you're up against. I hope there are more and better stats, because presenting ones like yours above will only steel the negative opinion of most people towards homeschooling.
yters 16y ago
What's my recipe for schooling, you ask? 1. Teach kid to read 2. Show him internet 3. Kick him out of house
- epochwolf 16y ago
  And how do you plan to keep him from watching porn all day long?
  - joelhooks 16y ago
    I tell mine that I do weekly log analysis of all traffic crossing the router. It isn't true, but the bluff has held for years. Shit, now he'll find this and have the keys to the pleasure garden...
    - crpatino 16y ago
      How can you possibly know if the bluff has held so far or not, if not by log analysis?
greencircle 16y ago
I look forward to reading his online book. There are quite a few interesting books from the 60s on this topic, including Paul Goodman's "Compulsory Miseducation" --- which you can read online at http://gyanpedia.in/Portals/0/Toys%20from%20Trash/Resources/books/goodman.pdf http://gyanpedia.in/Portals/0/Toys%20from%20Trash/Resources/... --- and A.S. Neill's Summerhill, and Dennison's The Lives of Children. All three offer a formal framework for addressing this topic: how we learn and develop is a psychological matter, not one of grades, nor figuring out how to fill a kid's head with facts. Contemporary work on cognitive and psychological development (unintentionally) corroborates this viewpoint (as far as I can tell, which is part time research, since full time I write code).
michaelchisari 16y ago
I've always enjoyed Gatto's writing, although I disagree on some points: I'd prefer to move public schooling towards a more liberatory model, than encouraging home-schooling (something which doesn't favor people without the bare minimum of means). I prefer to change institutions than to drop out of them. If you like Gatto, I'd also recommend reading up on Francisco Ferrer, A.S. Neill, Paulo Freire, and Alfie Kohn.
- joelhooks 16y ago
  Adjusting the government school model and encouraging home education aren't mutually exclusive. It would seem that any sort of effective change in the way government approaches education is extremely difficult. We home educate our children, and you are correct. It has been a genuine challenge on many levels. I've observed various families with the minimum of means achieve success home educating, but in general it is folks that have a solid single income and understand that they are making a "sacrifice". There is very little in this life that favors those of bare minimum needs.
hoop 16y ago
I had to read this for a literature and composition class. Definitely an eye opener
SHOwnsYou 16y ago
I had a hard time reading this and I suspect I'm not the only one. What particularly struck a nerve with me was the absolutely out of left field mention of Columbine as if it somehow amplifies the impact of public schools being bad (paraphrasing: "Schools are 2000-4000 child warehouses, like the now famous Columbine highschool"). The alternative of large schools (and what is being championed here) is home schooling children. Not only does that not scale, it also disproportionately favors the wealthy as families with already limited means are unlikely to be able to commit neither the money nor the time (on top of work everyday) to teach their children. Even if you fix the scaling issues and the disproportionate income problems, you still have parents that simply don't care. When I was in school it was in vogue (in my locale) to take your kids out of public school and begin to homeschool them. But it turned out that parents' seemed to think that was the magic bullet, and their children were largely left to their own devices to figure out material, a schedule, and to somehow still be able to interact with kids their own age. Obviously, I am not a big proponent of home schooling. I actually liked going through public school. I will forever wager my small town public school education against any home-schooled person's education any day.
- jimwise 16y ago
  I'm curious whether you think home schooling favors the wealthy more than the public school system does? Recall that public school funding is a local affair; the wealthier the local population, the better funded the school. I'm also not sure what you mean by `scaling issues'? Many districts here in New York State avereage 45-50 students per teacher. We have a large family by the national or local averages, and our five kids have one homeschooling parent all to themselves... This doesn't mean that homeschooling is affordable for everyone -- especially given that every parent (and non-parent, for that matter) is paying (directly if they own, indirectly if they rent) for the public school system, whether they use it or not.
  - SHOwnsYou 16y ago
    > homeschool vs public school I can't speak with any authority on the relative value of home school vs public school for children of wealthy families. But I will point out that simply because a school district is well funded does not mean the school district will necessarily be better than better than a slightly less funded district. >scaling I did speak incompletely. I meant to to explain that school best works at scale (I meant to say "not only does that not scale down"). You have already explained this for me. Each family requires a parent to do the home schooling, where as public schools can provide a teacher for multiple children of multiple families. >pay for it regardless Fortunately those that own, they realize an associated cost of owning is taxation. The argument could also be made that in return for paying for the public school system, those residents are able to live in a place that has a compulsory education system. I'd be willing to bet that no one would flock to (let alone stay there for a significant portion of time) an area that did not require taxes that went to a local school system.
emit_time_n3rgy 16y ago
Loads of Gatto audio at http://tinyurl.com/2d9rqr http://tinyurl.com/2d9rqr

82 points by yters 16y ago

pero 16y ago

His magnum opus: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/ http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/ (free read)

If you ever get the chance to read Weapons of Mass Instruction by John Taylor Gatto I highly suggest it, it's very eye opening as to the origins and reasons for mandatory schooling. Also when reading John Taylor Gatto, please ensure you do not conflate schooling with education. You'll not like him very much if you conflate the two. Unless you really are against education, in that case please reply :)

tomjen3 16y ago
I already read The Underground History of American Education. Is it worth reading Weapons of Mass Instruction too? Not that it greatly matters, of course, since there is absolutely nothing I can do about it as I have already decided not to have kids.
- bmj 16y ago
  Why? There are plenty of home/un-schooling groups that you could assist even though you don't have kids.
- gallamine 16y ago
  I had the distinct privilege of being home-educated, and never darkening the door of a government run primary school. My parent's resolve in doing this was largely influenced by Mr. Gatto. There is hope.
- fleitz 16y ago
  Not sure haven't read that work of his. Right now I'm finishing off Disabling Professions by Ivan Illich which looks at how professions are a continuation of the learned helplessness that schooling helps to instill.
- Alex3917 16y ago
  "I already read The Underground History of American Education. Is it worth reading Weapons of Mass Instruction too?" No. Weapons of Mass Instruction is basically just excerpts from Underground History. I think there are a few new things, but mostly what happened is that the publisher for Underground History backed out once they read the book, which left Gatto allowed to self publish it himself but unable to find another publishing deal. So Weapons of Mass instruction was basically just him going out and repackaging Underground History and publishing the best of it.
  - euroclydon 16y ago
    I imagine any publisher would have strong disincentive to publish UHAE. He has few good things to say about the scholastic publishing houses.
- JabavuAdams 16y ago
  You can mentor someone else's kids. It needn't be formal.

djm 16y ago

Those who enjoy reading John Taylor Gatto may also like to read a great little book called "The teenage liberation handbook" by grace Llewellyn. It's that book you read as an adult and wish you'd read as a teenager.

InclinedPlane 16y ago

The fact that home schooled children often end up having a higher quality of education regardless of the educational levels of the parents seems to me a pretty damning indictment of the public school system in general. There is this perception (backed by laws, regulations, and taxes) that there is a specific and elevated set of skills necessary to be a teacher, however all of the evidence seems to indicate this isn't the case.

noahc 16y ago
Do you have a source for this?
- Duff 16y ago
  http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/30/home-schooling-outstanding-results-national-tests/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/30/home-schooli... "Five areas of academic pursuit were measured. In reading, the average home-schooler scored at the 89th percentile; language, 84th percentile; math, 84th percentile; science, 86th percentile; and social studies, 84th percentile. In the core studies (reading, language and math), the average home-schooler scored at the 88th percentile. The average public school student taking these standardized tests scored at the 50th percentile in each subject area." If you look at results from alternative schools like Montessori schools, you usually find similar results. It's not magic -- I enjoyed school but recognize in retrospect that it was an awful experience in many ways that instilled bad habits.
  - moxiemk1 16y ago
    As usual, causation is not correlation, and consciously deciding to take your children out of public schools and either homeschool them or put them in an alternative school show's a significant amount more involvement in your child's life than is the norm. Also, that study was produced by an organization, (http://www.nheri.org/ http://www.nheri.org/) that is specifically dedicated to producing studies about homeschooling. The titles of their reports all allude to defending the idea of homeschooling, and they put out guides to putting it into practice. The children for the study were "almost 12,000 home-school students from all 50 states who took three well-known standardized achievements tests", which aren't required for children to take, unless possibly if they live in Iowa or California. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that poorly performing homeschooled children would not take these tests, since they have nothing to gain from them. For what it's worth, all the anecdotal evidence I have from growing up and knowing a number of home-schooled children, it's certainly not guaranteed to work better than public schools, and I've never met an intelligent, thoughtful person to come out of it. Not that amazingly smart people can't result, but I've never met them, and I feel like that's the attitude you're up against. I hope there are more and better stats, because presenting ones like yours above will only steel the negative opinion of most people towards homeschooling.

yters 16y ago

What's my recipe for schooling, you ask? 1. Teach kid to read 2. Show him internet 3. Kick him out of house

epochwolf 16y ago
And how do you plan to keep him from watching porn all day long?
- joelhooks 16y ago
  I tell mine that I do weekly log analysis of all traffic crossing the router. It isn't true, but the bluff has held for years. Shit, now he'll find this and have the keys to the pleasure garden...
  - crpatino 16y ago
    How can you possibly know if the bluff has held so far or not, if not by log analysis?

greencircle 16y ago

I look forward to reading his online book. There are quite a few interesting books from the 60s on this topic, including Paul Goodman's "Compulsory Miseducation" --- which you can read online at http://gyanpedia.in/Portals/0/Toys%20from%20Trash/Resources/books/goodman.pdf http://gyanpedia.in/Portals/0/Toys%20from%20Trash/Resources/... --- and A.S. Neill's Summerhill, and Dennison's The Lives of Children. All three offer a formal framework for addressing this topic: how we learn and develop is a psychological matter, not one of grades, nor figuring out how to fill a kid's head with facts. Contemporary work on cognitive and psychological development (unintentionally) corroborates this viewpoint (as far as I can tell, which is part time research, since full time I write code).

michaelchisari 16y ago

I've always enjoyed Gatto's writing, although I disagree on some points: I'd prefer to move public schooling towards a more liberatory model, than encouraging home-schooling (something which doesn't favor people without the bare minimum of means). I prefer to change institutions than to drop out of them. If you like Gatto, I'd also recommend reading up on Francisco Ferrer, A.S. Neill, Paulo Freire, and Alfie Kohn.

joelhooks 16y ago
Adjusting the government school model and encouraging home education aren't mutually exclusive. It would seem that any sort of effective change in the way government approaches education is extremely difficult. We home educate our children, and you are correct. It has been a genuine challenge on many levels. I've observed various families with the minimum of means achieve success home educating, but in general it is folks that have a solid single income and understand that they are making a "sacrifice". There is very little in this life that favors those of bare minimum needs.

hoop 16y ago

I had to read this for a literature and composition class. Definitely an eye opener

SHOwnsYou 16y ago

I had a hard time reading this and I suspect I'm not the only one. What particularly struck a nerve with me was the absolutely out of left field mention of Columbine as if it somehow amplifies the impact of public schools being bad (paraphrasing: "Schools are 2000-4000 child warehouses, like the now famous Columbine highschool"). The alternative of large schools (and what is being championed here) is home schooling children. Not only does that not scale, it also disproportionately favors the wealthy as families with already limited means are unlikely to be able to commit neither the money nor the time (on top of work everyday) to teach their children. Even if you fix the scaling issues and the disproportionate income problems, you still have parents that simply don't care. When I was in school it was in vogue (in my locale) to take your kids out of public school and begin to homeschool them. But it turned out that parents' seemed to think that was the magic bullet, and their children were largely left to their own devices to figure out material, a schedule, and to somehow still be able to interact with kids their own age. Obviously, I am not a big proponent of home schooling. I actually liked going through public school. I will forever wager my small town public school education against any home-schooled person's education any day.

jimwise 16y ago
I'm curious whether you think home schooling favors the wealthy more than the public school system does? Recall that public school funding is a local affair; the wealthier the local population, the better funded the school. I'm also not sure what you mean by `scaling issues'? Many districts here in New York State avereage 45-50 students per teacher. We have a large family by the national or local averages, and our five kids have one homeschooling parent all to themselves... This doesn't mean that homeschooling is affordable for everyone -- especially given that every parent (and non-parent, for that matter) is paying (directly if they own, indirectly if they rent) for the public school system, whether they use it or not.
- SHOwnsYou 16y ago
  > homeschool vs public school I can't speak with any authority on the relative value of home school vs public school for children of wealthy families. But I will point out that simply because a school district is well funded does not mean the school district will necessarily be better than better than a slightly less funded district. >scaling I did speak incompletely. I meant to to explain that school best works at scale (I meant to say "not only does that not scale down"). You have already explained this for me. Each family requires a parent to do the home schooling, where as public schools can provide a teacher for multiple children of multiple families. >pay for it regardless Fortunately those that own, they realize an associated cost of owning is taxation. The argument could also be made that in return for paying for the public school system, those residents are able to live in a place that has a compulsory education system. I'd be willing to bet that no one would flock to (let alone stay there for a significant portion of time) an area that did not require taxes that went to a local school system.

emit_time_n3rgy 16y ago

Loads of Gatto audio at http://tinyurl.com/2d9rqr http://tinyurl.com/2d9rqr