5 ms·

So, dumb question, why can't Intel contract with TSMC then?

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
They could, but any money Intel pays TSMC is money they aren't investing in their own fabs. Intel has invested a lot in their fabs, and they really could catch up. It could perhaps be argued that Intel is playing into the sunk-cost fallacy, but I really don't think they're far enough behind for that yet.
mappu 6y ago
- The bad optics would tank their share price - TSMC have limited capacity - Intel's designs are tightly coupled to their own foundry (hence the Skylake rehashes instead of porting the improved Ice Lake architecture back to the 14nm process) - Intel are still improving their own foundry processes. By the time the above could be solved, Intel's own 10nm may be improved, or their 7nm process might be ready
exmadscientist 6y ago
Intel locked their designs not just to their own fabs, but to specific processes. Most other companies don't do this. It buys you better, more optimized performance, but completely prevents design transfer. This really bit Intel when their P1274 ("10nm") did not work for years, leaving manufacturing stuck on P1272 ("14nm")... with microarchitectures designed for P1274 and unable to be easily ported. They could have invested in porting -- it's not impossible, only resource-intensive -- but the manufacturing group kept insisting P1274 was about to enter HVM... for years... so the designs were never ported. In hindsight, this appears to have been a serious blunder.
- jhallenworld 6y ago
  I'm curious about the design tool different between Intel and TSMC.. it's likely that Intel has non-standard tools. An indication of this is how much time it took to move Altera's FPGAs to Intel's process. https://semiaccurate.com/2019/09/23/altera-releases-stratix-fpgas-years-late/ https://semiaccurate.com/2019/09/23/altera-releases-stratix-...
- kungato 6y ago
  Is there any a bit bigger writeup/interview about this? Did they abandon this approach or are they still sticking with it?
  - wmf 6y ago
    Intel announced that future cores will be portable to multiple processes, although it's not clear whether that includes non-Intel ones. It is rumored that the upcoming Rocket Lake is a 14 nm backport of Willow Cove that was originally intended for 10 nm.
topkai22 6y ago
Let me answer by way of another question- "Why can't Google move its cloud servers to AWS?" If a major company like that adopged a competitors product, huge numbers of customers would question why they are on the platform/product in the first place.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  Let me answer by way of another question- "Why can't Google move its cloud servers to AWS?" I don’t think that’s a good analogy because e.g. Apple does use other cloud providers. There are two sides to the Intel coin, the design itself and the manufacturing process. If people really want the design they won’t care who makes it.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    > Apple does use other cloud providers. But unlike Google, they don't have their own cloud.
    - topkai22 6y ago
      Exactly. If you want to be pedantic they do sell cloud services but not cloud infrastructure. A more dramatic comparison would be Apple putting android on some of thier devices.
    - spacedcowboy 6y ago
      Que ? Apple have a slew of data centers, they have iCloud which handles mail, messages, storage etc. They use AWS for some stuff but they most certainly do have their own cloud, or Mike Abbot is fooling a Eddie Cue really well.
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        Oh, so they do, looks like my knowledge was outdated! https://9to5mac.com/2019/04/25/aws-halved-spending-apple-cloud/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/04/25/aws-halved-spending-apple-clo...
0xy 6y ago
Intel's ego is way too large. It's essentially an admission of defeat. AMD dumped their fabs years ago and it is without a doubt the best thing they've ever done, and it should be a case study on excellent business management. I'm just an outsider, but it seems like Intel is a slowly sinking ship run by money and operations guys -- in contrast to the brilliant Dr Lisa Su at AMD who actually has an extensive semiconductor background.
- beckingz 6y ago
  This is a good move until the company you outsource your core competency to decides to take the profit margins and do it all themselves.
  - RobLach 6y ago
    That’s a move you can only pull once. No one will ever contract on your fab again and all you’ve gained is a single design.

They could, but any money Intel pays TSMC is money they aren't investing in their own fabs. Intel has invested a lot in their fabs, and they really could catch up. It could perhaps be argued that Intel is playing into the sunk-cost fallacy, but I really don't think they're far enough behind for that yet.

mappu 6y ago

- The bad optics would tank their share price - TSMC have limited capacity - Intel's designs are tightly coupled to their own foundry (hence the Skylake rehashes instead of porting the improved Ice Lake architecture back to the 14nm process) - Intel are still improving their own foundry processes. By the time the above could be solved, Intel's own 10nm may be improved, or their 7nm process might be ready

exmadscientist 6y ago

Intel locked their designs not just to their own fabs, but to specific processes. Most other companies don't do this. It buys you better, more optimized performance, but completely prevents design transfer. This really bit Intel when their P1274 ("10nm") did not work for years, leaving manufacturing stuck on P1272 ("14nm")... with microarchitectures designed for P1274 and unable to be easily ported. They could have invested in porting -- it's not impossible, only resource-intensive -- but the manufacturing group kept insisting P1274 was about to enter HVM... for years... so the designs were never ported. In hindsight, this appears to have been a serious blunder.

jhallenworld 6y ago
I'm curious about the design tool different between Intel and TSMC.. it's likely that Intel has non-standard tools. An indication of this is how much time it took to move Altera's FPGAs to Intel's process. https://semiaccurate.com/2019/09/23/altera-releases-stratix-fpgas-years-late/ https://semiaccurate.com/2019/09/23/altera-releases-stratix-...
kungato 6y ago
Is there any a bit bigger writeup/interview about this? Did they abandon this approach or are they still sticking with it?
- wmf 6y ago
  Intel announced that future cores will be portable to multiple processes, although it's not clear whether that includes non-Intel ones. It is rumored that the upcoming Rocket Lake is a 14 nm backport of Willow Cove that was originally intended for 10 nm.

topkai22 6y ago

Let me answer by way of another question- "Why can't Google move its cloud servers to AWS?" If a major company like that adopged a competitors product, huge numbers of customers would question why they are on the platform/product in the first place.

goatinaboat 6y ago
Let me answer by way of another question- "Why can't Google move its cloud servers to AWS?" I don’t think that’s a good analogy because e.g. Apple does use other cloud providers. There are two sides to the Intel coin, the design itself and the manufacturing process. If people really want the design they won’t care who makes it.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > Apple does use other cloud providers. But unlike Google, they don't have their own cloud.
  - topkai22 6y ago
    Exactly. If you want to be pedantic they do sell cloud services but not cloud infrastructure. A more dramatic comparison would be Apple putting android on some of thier devices.
  - spacedcowboy 6y ago
    Que ? Apple have a slew of data centers, they have iCloud which handles mail, messages, storage etc. They use AWS for some stuff but they most certainly do have their own cloud, or Mike Abbot is fooling a Eddie Cue really well.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      Oh, so they do, looks like my knowledge was outdated! https://9to5mac.com/2019/04/25/aws-halved-spending-apple-cloud/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/04/25/aws-halved-spending-apple-clo...

0xy 6y ago

Intel's ego is way too large. It's essentially an admission of defeat. AMD dumped their fabs years ago and it is without a doubt the best thing they've ever done, and it should be a case study on excellent business management. I'm just an outsider, but it seems like Intel is a slowly sinking ship run by money and operations guys -- in contrast to the brilliant Dr Lisa Su at AMD who actually has an extensive semiconductor background.

beckingz 6y ago
This is a good move until the company you outsource your core competency to decides to take the profit margins and do it all themselves.
- RobLach 6y ago
  That’s a move you can only pull once. No one will ever contract on your fab again and all you’ve gained is a single design.