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Is it really the x86 architecture that's driving costs up and not core micro architecture and process? From where I sit, what we're actually seeing is a 7nm (an

by dcow 6y ago

Is it really the x86 architecture that's driving costs up and not core micro architecture and process? From where I sit, what we're actually seeing is a 7nm (and impending 5mn) TSMC process destroy the old 14nm process Intel has been hung up on for too long. I mean that's a square increase in density right there. If Intel could fab a 7nm chip right now, I'm pretty sure it would compete in the power department with any arm chip on the market. Just look at the latest Ryzen 4800U. It's a 10w 7nm x86_64 chip that outperforms the a12z. I don't want to downplay the proliferation of ARM we've seen lately due to the smartphone market, and having another architecture is good thing. But I'm not convinced the author isn't scapegoating x86. https://gizmodo.com/so-just-how-powerful-are-apples-new-laptop-chips-gonna-1844134011 https://gizmodo.com/so-just-how-powerful-are-apples-new-lapt...

justAnotherNET 6y ago
> I mean that's a square increase in density right there. It’s hard to say this without being snarky, but anyone who still uses marketing “nanometer” labels for process comparison can have their opinions safely discarded. Every thread for the past 10 years on this topic has explained this, yet every thread there’s some new person who stumbles in not knowing anything at all comparing the same tired numbers. Every thread someone corrects them, yet every next-thread will have another.
Xixi 6y ago
I think that Gizmodo article is getting it very wrong. They keep talking about "the A12Z intended for the Mac", but AFAIK there is no "A12Z intended for the Mac". When Apple switched to Intel their TDK used a Pentium 4, yet no Mac ever shipped with a Pentium 4 (besides the TDK itself, if you consider it a Mac). The ARM TDK is basically an iPad Pro running macOS, without a screen and with extra ram. A12Z themselves are just re-binned A12X (with just one extra GPU core activated), processors that are nearly two years old. No way Apple is shipping that in their first MacBook ARM...
- dcow 6y ago
  >No way Apple is shipping that in their first MacBook ARM... No doubt. However, I don't think the article is so much "getting it very wrong" as it is working with what they've got. We've seen what a 10-18 watt soc from apple can do in the iPad. And it's pretty cool. But the point is it's not truth defining jaw dropping revolutionary. We can look at what AMD is selling right now. It's also pretty cool and starting to turn some eyeballs. It's very unlikely Apple is going to release something that outright spanks the status quo. So my expectations are that whatever Apple releases will be competitive with what we currently see from AMD and, maybe, with what we'll see later this year. That's all. I'm skeptical that the shift to ARM is the crux of the matter, is all.
KozmoNau7 6y ago
I want those new low-TDP Ryzens either as AM4 socketed or mounted in mini-ITX motherboards, but only the higher TDP desktop models seem to be available.
- dcow 6y ago
  Lenovo just released the Thinkpad X13 (an AMD version of the X1) for the first time. It has a 10/25w TDP 44/46/4750U. I think the focus right now for the lower TDP chips is laptop computing because that's where you'll see the most improvement. I've been following the market for the past 9 or so months because I need a new machine and both Intel and AMD have taken that strategy. Look at the ASUS G14. A laptop that can nab 10h of battery life on a 76 watt x h battery because its workstation (H, not U) series processor is only pulling 10W. And it benches close to a desktop 10th gen i7 at full power. It's getting exciting.
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    AMD really are trying to get in the enterprise laptop segment, simply because that's where Intel has had a near-monopoly since the Pentium M. So I know why I can't get a good mini-ITX board, but I still really want one :-) As is, my best option for the living room NAS/HTPC turned out to be a J4105 board from ASRock. 10w TDP and apparently it can do 4 simultaneous GPU-accelerated 4K transcodes, which is pretty neat. Perhaps I'll upgrade to an AMD board at some point.

by dcow 6y ago

justAnotherNET 6y ago

> I mean that's a square increase in density right there. It’s hard to say this without being snarky, but anyone who still uses marketing “nanometer” labels for process comparison can have their opinions safely discarded. Every thread for the past 10 years on this topic has explained this, yet every thread there’s some new person who stumbles in not knowing anything at all comparing the same tired numbers. Every thread someone corrects them, yet every next-thread will have another.

Xixi 6y ago

I think that Gizmodo article is getting it very wrong. They keep talking about "the A12Z intended for the Mac", but AFAIK there is no "A12Z intended for the Mac". When Apple switched to Intel their TDK used a Pentium 4, yet no Mac ever shipped with a Pentium 4 (besides the TDK itself, if you consider it a Mac). The ARM TDK is basically an iPad Pro running macOS, without a screen and with extra ram. A12Z themselves are just re-binned A12X (with just one extra GPU core activated), processors that are nearly two years old. No way Apple is shipping that in their first MacBook ARM...

dcow 6y ago
>No way Apple is shipping that in their first MacBook ARM... No doubt. However, I don't think the article is so much "getting it very wrong" as it is working with what they've got. We've seen what a 10-18 watt soc from apple can do in the iPad. And it's pretty cool. But the point is it's not truth defining jaw dropping revolutionary. We can look at what AMD is selling right now. It's also pretty cool and starting to turn some eyeballs. It's very unlikely Apple is going to release something that outright spanks the status quo. So my expectations are that whatever Apple releases will be competitive with what we currently see from AMD and, maybe, with what we'll see later this year. That's all. I'm skeptical that the shift to ARM is the crux of the matter, is all.

KozmoNau7 6y ago

I want those new low-TDP Ryzens either as AM4 socketed or mounted in mini-ITX motherboards, but only the higher TDP desktop models seem to be available.

dcow 6y ago
Lenovo just released the Thinkpad X13 (an AMD version of the X1) for the first time. It has a 10/25w TDP 44/46/4750U. I think the focus right now for the lower TDP chips is laptop computing because that's where you'll see the most improvement. I've been following the market for the past 9 or so months because I need a new machine and both Intel and AMD have taken that strategy. Look at the ASUS G14. A laptop that can nab 10h of battery life on a 76 watt x h battery because its workstation (H, not U) series processor is only pulling 10W. And it benches close to a desktop 10th gen i7 at full power. It's getting exciting.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  AMD really are trying to get in the enterprise laptop segment, simply because that's where Intel has had a near-monopoly since the Pentium M. So I know why I can't get a good mini-ITX board, but I still really want one :-) As is, my best option for the living room NAS/HTPC turned out to be a J4105 board from ASRock. 10w TDP and apparently it can do 4 simultaneous GPU-accelerated 4K transcodes, which is pretty neat. Perhaps I'll upgrade to an AMD board at some point.