5 ms·

it really sounds like the youth got sick and tired of the lock-down and would rather get sick than continue with the never ending prison like conditions it pro

it really sounds like the youth got sick and tired of the lock-down and would rather get sick than continue with the never ending prison like conditions it probably is the right course of action - even though ethically no official can suggest that the paper is supported in the sense that everyone is wrong about how dangerous the disease is, and whether people should be allowed to decide what risk they are willing to take

NotSammyHagar 6y ago
I disagree with your last point - this is very infectious and because we can't know in many cases if we are carrying it, it's incumbent on everyone to protect others by wearing a mask. Because many don't know they have it, it's different than the flu where ordinary flu often has clear symptoms before infectiousness starts.
- glofish 6y ago
  the "mask" is the red herring of every discussion. It is a talisman that people cling to as a way to ward off any of the ills. I happen to be convinced that some types of masks, like the reusable cloth masks actually make you sicker. Here is a well research piece with a randomized trial that shows how continuously worn cloth masks are worse than using them more rarely (control) (leading to 4% more infections): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ Of course I don't expect this research to be quoted in the current hysterical environment. But I would not be surprised if by this time next year the world will be full with publications on how cloth masks cause more trouble than worth with a strong recommendation to avoid them.
  - ddingus 6y ago
    We will also find papers telling people how to sterilize.
  - tlb 6y ago
    You have misread the paper. It says that cloth masks are worse than medical masks, and worse than "standard practice" which seems to be mostly medical masks but not worn as rigorously. They didn't test against no masks, which would be insanely dangerous in a hospital.
    - tripletao 6y ago
      Yeah. I saw that paper cited frequently back when the public health authorities were advising against masks, and I'm afraid their decision to characterize standard practice including medical mask wearing as the "control arm" has caused considerable confusion and harm.
  - tripletao 6y ago
    If you don't think masks work, then why do you think Japan is sitting around 8 deaths per million (with no significant lockdown), while the USA is at 416? Masks aren't the only possible explanation--it could be weather, or contact tracing (which may be unintuitively effective due to heterogeneity), or generally meticulous hygiene, or something else. They're my first guess, though.
ddingus 6y ago
Doing that only solidifies the transition to endemic. Until we have meaningful treatments, living apart and doing all we can to limit the spread is the best move.
- glofish 6y ago
  it does not say that at all, instead, perhaps we could allow some people, you know those that are willing to take the risk, to live their lives they way they want it every single person that gets through the disease (and that is over 99.5% of them) is now immune and fully functional member of the society we need to stop treating the disease as "dead" end, where one is you are either uninfected or "dead". Most people suffer no ill effects and would rather get through the disease. I am like that, and for what is worth I believe I already had the disease, yet I am not allowed to live my life as I want it. What about 10% of the population that is estimated to have been already exposed? Where are their rights? On what basis does the rest of the population limit our rights when we are not a risk?
  - ddingus 6y ago
    We need to realize we know very little and mother nature is the authority. Many of us, myself included, find it hard to come to terms with basic ignorance. We are very ignorant about CoV19 right now. It will take a long time to get smart, have the understanding needed to live as we used to. You don't even know you had it, or which strain. Think a little please. This is about US, not just you, or me, or "those other people." Failure to grok that has severe consequences. Revisit these thoughts near end of year. Seriously. There is real ugly ahead. Immunity is proving to be a thing that does not endure. We are also finding second and third infections play out differently. This virus won't just go away. And we are a long way from potent treatments. Sadly, I had it too. Was a very rough month. I must be honest: scared the shit out of me. My whole fam struggled through. I came just a shade from being in the hospital too. Worse? I am currently priced out of health care insurance. Literally everything is on the line and I am very far from alone in the US, which is going to become a very tough place to live in just a few short months. Nobody gets to live life the way they want because everyone is impacted. All humans are exposed, all humans are under threat, at risk, until all humans have access to remedies. Should you get it again, say 3 to 5 months from now when whatever immune response you have going on right now fades away, your symptoms run a good chance of being much, much worse. How we lived is over for a good long while. And because the risks endure, escalate easily, and are serious, we are very likely to see the majority of humans enforce living differently for the common good. I am one of them. New day. I hate it. And I am sorry. We, as a species, could have, should have, bit flat out just didn't. Now this thing is in the world and for now we cope and learn. One day we can live again, and ideally learn a tough, expensive lesson. I sure hope so, because this all sucks hard.

NotSammyHagar 6y ago

I disagree with your last point - this is very infectious and because we can't know in many cases if we are carrying it, it's incumbent on everyone to protect others by wearing a mask. Because many don't know they have it, it's different than the flu where ordinary flu often has clear symptoms before infectiousness starts.

glofish 6y ago
the "mask" is the red herring of every discussion. It is a talisman that people cling to as a way to ward off any of the ills. I happen to be convinced that some types of masks, like the reusable cloth masks actually make you sicker. Here is a well research piece with a randomized trial that shows how continuously worn cloth masks are worse than using them more rarely (control) (leading to 4% more infections): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/ Of course I don't expect this research to be quoted in the current hysterical environment. But I would not be surprised if by this time next year the world will be full with publications on how cloth masks cause more trouble than worth with a strong recommendation to avoid them.
- ddingus 6y ago
  We will also find papers telling people how to sterilize.
- tlb 6y ago
  You have misread the paper. It says that cloth masks are worse than medical masks, and worse than "standard practice" which seems to be mostly medical masks but not worn as rigorously. They didn't test against no masks, which would be insanely dangerous in a hospital.
  - tripletao 6y ago
    Yeah. I saw that paper cited frequently back when the public health authorities were advising against masks, and I'm afraid their decision to characterize standard practice including medical mask wearing as the "control arm" has caused considerable confusion and harm.
- tripletao 6y ago
  If you don't think masks work, then why do you think Japan is sitting around 8 deaths per million (with no significant lockdown), while the USA is at 416? Masks aren't the only possible explanation--it could be weather, or contact tracing (which may be unintuitively effective due to heterogeneity), or generally meticulous hygiene, or something else. They're my first guess, though.

ddingus 6y ago

Doing that only solidifies the transition to endemic. Until we have meaningful treatments, living apart and doing all we can to limit the spread is the best move.

glofish 6y ago
it does not say that at all, instead, perhaps we could allow some people, you know those that are willing to take the risk, to live their lives they way they want it every single person that gets through the disease (and that is over 99.5% of them) is now immune and fully functional member of the society we need to stop treating the disease as "dead" end, where one is you are either uninfected or "dead". Most people suffer no ill effects and would rather get through the disease. I am like that, and for what is worth I believe I already had the disease, yet I am not allowed to live my life as I want it. What about 10% of the population that is estimated to have been already exposed? Where are their rights? On what basis does the rest of the population limit our rights when we are not a risk?
- ddingus 6y ago
  We need to realize we know very little and mother nature is the authority. Many of us, myself included, find it hard to come to terms with basic ignorance. We are very ignorant about CoV19 right now. It will take a long time to get smart, have the understanding needed to live as we used to. You don't even know you had it, or which strain. Think a little please. This is about US, not just you, or me, or "those other people." Failure to grok that has severe consequences. Revisit these thoughts near end of year. Seriously. There is real ugly ahead. Immunity is proving to be a thing that does not endure. We are also finding second and third infections play out differently. This virus won't just go away. And we are a long way from potent treatments. Sadly, I had it too. Was a very rough month. I must be honest: scared the shit out of me. My whole fam struggled through. I came just a shade from being in the hospital too. Worse? I am currently priced out of health care insurance. Literally everything is on the line and I am very far from alone in the US, which is going to become a very tough place to live in just a few short months. Nobody gets to live life the way they want because everyone is impacted. All humans are exposed, all humans are under threat, at risk, until all humans have access to remedies. Should you get it again, say 3 to 5 months from now when whatever immune response you have going on right now fades away, your symptoms run a good chance of being much, much worse. How we lived is over for a good long while. And because the risks endure, escalate easily, and are serious, we are very likely to see the majority of humans enforce living differently for the common good. I am one of them. New day. I hate it. And I am sorry. We, as a species, could have, should have, bit flat out just didn't. Now this thing is in the world and for now we cope and learn. One day we can live again, and ideally learn a tough, expensive lesson. I sure hope so, because this all sucks hard.