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[At risk of veering OT here], it seems to me that Marx clearly was inspired by poor worker conditions; a good 1/3 of Capital is empirical discourse on worker c

by amoe_ 6y ago

[At risk of veering OT here], it seems to me that Marx clearly was inspired by poor worker conditions; a good 1/3 of Capital is empirical discourse on worker conditions. I feel that there might be something more to your argument, so please elaborate if you feel the need.

TheNorthman 6y ago
I think this is a case of language being context-dependent and how the exact meaning of `inspired' depends on its use. I'll elaborate a bit but ultimately I'll say this: Marx was inspired by the world around him, which consisted of poor worker conditions [0]. We can say this confidently because recent evolution in the study of ideology tells us exactly this: We are a product of our social and material environment, something we can't escape [1]. Anyway, my point is that the way CamperBob2 discusses the topic of Marx's inspiration makes it sound like a fundamental axiom of Marxism is the poor conditions of the working class and specifically their conditions during working hours. If this was true, we'd be able to conclude that the predictions of Marx [2] would be disproved by the gradual removal of these (poor) worker conditions. We can show this isn't true by appealing to our shared knowledge about the world, where global inequality is increasing and where worker conflict was at the center of an (almost) successful presidential campaign. We can also show this with empirical data, where our shared knowledge may fail us. For instance, Marx predicted that the global rate of profit would continue to fall, the reasons for which are beyond the scope of HN. This has been demonstrated to be true by many Marxists along the years, of whom the most prominent since the rise of the IT-worker is the economist Andrew Kliman [3]. [0]: See Marx's theory of alienation and the concept of reification, for instances of this. [1]: In particular, see Anthoni Gramsci through Louis Althusser and Slavoj Zizek. [2]: Ranging from social conflict theory to capital accumulation, the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, the value-form and social conflict theory. [3]: “The Persistent Fall in Profitability Underlying the Current Crisis: New Temporalist Evidence” by Andrew Kliman
sudosysgen 6y ago
A good 1/3 of Kapital is a discourse on why workers conditions are so bad, and that fits into an analysis of capitalism. Marxism isn't a normative ideology. You could be a despotic monopoly leader and still be a Marxist. Whether worker conditions are good or bad at any instant in any place has no bearing on Marxist analysis.
- TheNorthman 6y ago
  This is incredibly succinctly stated and exactly what I tried to say.

by amoe_ 6y ago

TheNorthman 6y ago

I think this is a case of language being context-dependent and how the exact meaning of `inspired' depends on its use. I'll elaborate a bit but ultimately I'll say this: Marx was inspired by the world around him, which consisted of poor worker conditions [0]. We can say this confidently because recent evolution in the study of ideology tells us exactly this: We are a product of our social and material environment, something we can't escape [1]. Anyway, my point is that the way CamperBob2 discusses the topic of Marx's inspiration makes it sound like a fundamental axiom of Marxism is the poor conditions of the working class and specifically their conditions during working hours. If this was true, we'd be able to conclude that the predictions of Marx [2] would be disproved by the gradual removal of these (poor) worker conditions. We can show this isn't true by appealing to our shared knowledge about the world, where global inequality is increasing and where worker conflict was at the center of an (almost) successful presidential campaign. We can also show this with empirical data, where our shared knowledge may fail us. For instance, Marx predicted that the global rate of profit would continue to fall, the reasons for which are beyond the scope of HN. This has been demonstrated to be true by many Marxists along the years, of whom the most prominent since the rise of the IT-worker is the economist Andrew Kliman [3]. [0]: See Marx's theory of alienation and the concept of reification, for instances of this. [1]: In particular, see Anthoni Gramsci through Louis Althusser and Slavoj Zizek. [2]: Ranging from social conflict theory to capital accumulation, the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, the value-form and social conflict theory. [3]: “The Persistent Fall in Profitability Underlying the Current Crisis: New Temporalist Evidence” by Andrew Kliman

sudosysgen 6y ago

A good 1/3 of Kapital is a discourse on why workers conditions are so bad, and that fits into an analysis of capitalism. Marxism isn't a normative ideology. You could be a despotic monopoly leader and still be a Marxist. Whether worker conditions are good or bad at any instant in any place has no bearing on Marxist analysis.

TheNorthman 6y ago
This is incredibly succinctly stated and exactly what I tried to say.