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Note that US citizens have long been warned about stuff like this, especially exit bans. From the state department in 2018: > Exercise increased caution in Chi

Note that US citizens have long been warned about stuff like this, especially exit bans. From the state department in 2018: > Exercise increased caution in China due to the arbitrary enforcement of local laws and special restrictions on dual U.S.-Chinese nationals. > Chinese authorities have the broad ability to prohibit travelers from leaving China (also known as ‘exit bans’); exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations. Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family members or colleagues to cooperate with Chinese courts or investigators. > U.S. citizens visiting or residing in China have been arbitrarily interrogated or detained for reasons related to “state security.” Security personnel have detained and/or deported U.S. citizens for sending private electronic messages critical of the Chinese government. travel.state.gov archived from 2018: https://web.archive.org/web/20180112180843/https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180112180843/https://travel.st...

JohnTHaller 6y ago
> Chinese authorities have the broad ability to prohibit travelers from leaving China (also known as ‘exit bans’); exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations. Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family members or colleagues to cooperate with Chinese courts or investigators. AKA taking hostages.
- genoapol 6y ago
  Sounds like what the US & Canada did to Meng Wanzhou.
  - jorblumesea 6y ago
    I don't think anyone would disagree that she's a pawn in a geopolitical struggle, but it also sounds like she absolutely and intentionally violated US law. There's pretty clear evidence, mostly in emails, of Huawei execs knowingly flaunting the export laws. It's unclear if the westerners detained in China have committed crimes. I think their detention is a good example of what this warning is about. Detained for unclear reasons under broad state security rules with little presented evidence of crimes. Indefinite detention without any hope of a trial, kept in total isolation, without any formal representation. Meng got her day in court, will the Michaels ever get that?
    - IllogicalLogic 6y ago
      >I don't think anyone would disagree that she's a pawn in a geopolitical struggle, but it also sounds like she absolutely and intentionally violated US law Someone that didn't visit the US was arrested for "breaking US law"...replace "US" with "China" and see how this sentence rings.
      - jorblumesea 6y ago
        Why do you have to visit the country to commit crimes against that country? Isn't that how every sovereign nation state works? The host country can choose not to extradite, but most countries generally accept this basic idea that sovereign nations can charge and warrant the arrest of individuals as pertinent.
        IllogicalLogic 6y ago
        If Assange leaked Chinese intelligence secrets, would he be free right now? I expect so. I'm not sure the whole "China is uniquely evil" idea that is expressed in these comments stands up to even the smallest scrutiny.
        room271 6y ago
        There is a difference between China is 'uniquely evil' and 'China has an especially bad record on human rights and fair enforcement of the law.' Remember, in China there is pretty much no freedom of thought, including religion. And they are oppressing 3 large groups of people - Tibet, Xinjiang, and now Hong Kong. Of course it is not a binary good/bad thing, but some kind of false moral equivalence between China and Western countries is just as ridiculous and harmful.
  - ausjke 6y ago
    At least Meng can hire lawyers etc. In China, there is no real law when it comes to anything political or economical, which are always mixed.
    - socialdemocrat 6y ago
      There is a serious problem with justice in the US though. We have in Norway seen cases of our citizens being unjustly imprisoned in the US through sham trials. While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway. I don’t defend China, but I wish the US held a much higher standard itself because it is hard for western countries to fight for justice and human rights when the US has such a poor record itself.
      - kolanos 6y ago
        > There is a serious problem with justice in the US though. We have in Norway seen cases of our citizens being unjustly imprisoned in the US through sham trials. Any links to support this? > While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway. Isn't that an indictment of the Norway justice system? Or would it be acceptable if Norway could protect its citizens in the United States?
      - jki275 6y ago
        I would very much like to see a citation on this, because I’ve certainly never heard of it if true.
        lol636363 6y ago
        I believe they are talking about Wikileaks.
  - JohnTHaller 6y ago
    Did you miss the part about holding innocent family members?
    - dirtyid 6y ago
      People who do not follow these developments as they happen will also miss that this state department release is one of John Bolton's pet projects. Most of US messaging on China under this administration should be taken with a grain of salt. The two high profile cases that has any info, Sandra Han + Liu siblings (which triggered the warning), and Huang Wan, all has to do with father being caught with massive corruption charges in China and family members directly profited from i.e. Han + kids had multi-million dollar realestate holdings in the US under their names. Chinese corruption is typically a family affair. I haven't seen any cases that was unambiguous hostage taking. The broader issue is many Chinese financial criminals flee to the west where they're safe from prosecution, the west benefits and extradition to PRC isn't on the table. So there's nothing China can do except to wait for the extra dumb one's to return or more commonly, or coerce those abroad to return by threatening innocent family members which to my knowledge has been limited to Chinese nationals. Exit bans seem to be reserved for those complicit in crimes. State department is reaching hard to to make it seem arbitrary when tldr is don't go to China if they want you for crimes, double for dissident activities.
- gambiting 6y ago
  I mean, is it really such a rare thing to do? I know that in Poland if you have any outstanding and overdue unpaid fines/alimonies/traffic tickets, you will be prevented from boarding a flight out of the country at any airport until those obligations are paid.
  - giobox 6y ago
    Detention for _civil_ offences or business disputes? Yes, that does not happen in most Western countries. We aren’t talking just about criminal or major offences here.
  - jorblumesea 6y ago
    Those examples are of civil infractions, which are not criminal offenses. So yeah, that would be weird. Maybe if you injured someone in a car accident or stole money. But it gets even worse. Imagine if you went to Poland, got into an argument with the manager of a factory there, and had your exist visa revoked. Imagine if someone from a state service showed up and told you, off the record, that you needed to hash things out to leave the country. Isn't that pretty crazy? I think so. The exist visa ban is a broad sweeping power than can be used by the state for almost any purpose.
  - JohnTHaller 6y ago
    Did you miss the part about holding innocent family members?
  - mthoms 6y ago
    You're missing the point. People are being accused for crimes they (more than likely) didn't commit and denied basic human rights. They face a 99% conviction rate in the Chinese courts. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-charges-michael-kovrig-and-michael-spavor-with-spying/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-charges-...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - 6y ago
ddona 6y ago
How is this moving below a post (on the front page) about MariaDB that's 14 hours old (versus 3 hours old), has fewer points, and many fewer comments?

JohnTHaller 6y ago

> Chinese authorities have the broad ability to prohibit travelers from leaving China (also known as ‘exit bans’); exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations. Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family members or colleagues to cooperate with Chinese courts or investigators. AKA taking hostages.

genoapol 6y ago
Sounds like what the US & Canada did to Meng Wanzhou.
- jorblumesea 6y ago
  I don't think anyone would disagree that she's a pawn in a geopolitical struggle, but it also sounds like she absolutely and intentionally violated US law. There's pretty clear evidence, mostly in emails, of Huawei execs knowingly flaunting the export laws. It's unclear if the westerners detained in China have committed crimes. I think their detention is a good example of what this warning is about. Detained for unclear reasons under broad state security rules with little presented evidence of crimes. Indefinite detention without any hope of a trial, kept in total isolation, without any formal representation. Meng got her day in court, will the Michaels ever get that?
  - IllogicalLogic 6y ago
    >I don't think anyone would disagree that she's a pawn in a geopolitical struggle, but it also sounds like she absolutely and intentionally violated US law Someone that didn't visit the US was arrested for "breaking US law"...replace "US" with "China" and see how this sentence rings.
    - jorblumesea 6y ago
      Why do you have to visit the country to commit crimes against that country? Isn't that how every sovereign nation state works? The host country can choose not to extradite, but most countries generally accept this basic idea that sovereign nations can charge and warrant the arrest of individuals as pertinent.
      - IllogicalLogic 6y ago
        If Assange leaked Chinese intelligence secrets, would he be free right now? I expect so. I'm not sure the whole "China is uniquely evil" idea that is expressed in these comments stands up to even the smallest scrutiny.
        room271 6y ago
        There is a difference between China is 'uniquely evil' and 'China has an especially bad record on human rights and fair enforcement of the law.' Remember, in China there is pretty much no freedom of thought, including religion. And they are oppressing 3 large groups of people - Tibet, Xinjiang, and now Hong Kong. Of course it is not a binary good/bad thing, but some kind of false moral equivalence between China and Western countries is just as ridiculous and harmful.
- ausjke 6y ago
  At least Meng can hire lawyers etc. In China, there is no real law when it comes to anything political or economical, which are always mixed.
  - socialdemocrat 6y ago
    There is a serious problem with justice in the US though. We have in Norway seen cases of our citizens being unjustly imprisoned in the US through sham trials. While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway. I don’t defend China, but I wish the US held a much higher standard itself because it is hard for western countries to fight for justice and human rights when the US has such a poor record itself.
    - kolanos 6y ago
      > There is a serious problem with justice in the US though. We have in Norway seen cases of our citizens being unjustly imprisoned in the US through sham trials. Any links to support this? > While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway. Isn't that an indictment of the Norway justice system? Or would it be acceptable if Norway could protect its citizens in the United States?
    - jki275 6y ago
      I would very much like to see a citation on this, because I’ve certainly never heard of it if true.
      - lol636363 6y ago
        I believe they are talking about Wikileaks.
- JohnTHaller 6y ago
  Did you miss the part about holding innocent family members?
  - dirtyid 6y ago
    People who do not follow these developments as they happen will also miss that this state department release is one of John Bolton's pet projects. Most of US messaging on China under this administration should be taken with a grain of salt. The two high profile cases that has any info, Sandra Han + Liu siblings (which triggered the warning), and Huang Wan, all has to do with father being caught with massive corruption charges in China and family members directly profited from i.e. Han + kids had multi-million dollar realestate holdings in the US under their names. Chinese corruption is typically a family affair. I haven't seen any cases that was unambiguous hostage taking. The broader issue is many Chinese financial criminals flee to the west where they're safe from prosecution, the west benefits and extradition to PRC isn't on the table. So there's nothing China can do except to wait for the extra dumb one's to return or more commonly, or coerce those abroad to return by threatening innocent family members which to my knowledge has been limited to Chinese nationals. Exit bans seem to be reserved for those complicit in crimes. State department is reaching hard to to make it seem arbitrary when tldr is don't go to China if they want you for crimes, double for dissident activities.
gambiting 6y ago
I mean, is it really such a rare thing to do? I know that in Poland if you have any outstanding and overdue unpaid fines/alimonies/traffic tickets, you will be prevented from boarding a flight out of the country at any airport until those obligations are paid.
- giobox 6y ago
  Detention for _civil_ offences or business disputes? Yes, that does not happen in most Western countries. We aren’t talking just about criminal or major offences here.
- jorblumesea 6y ago
  Those examples are of civil infractions, which are not criminal offenses. So yeah, that would be weird. Maybe if you injured someone in a car accident or stole money. But it gets even worse. Imagine if you went to Poland, got into an argument with the manager of a factory there, and had your exist visa revoked. Imagine if someone from a state service showed up and told you, off the record, that you needed to hash things out to leave the country. Isn't that pretty crazy? I think so. The exist visa ban is a broad sweeping power than can be used by the state for almost any purpose.
- JohnTHaller 6y ago
  Did you miss the part about holding innocent family members?
- mthoms 6y ago
  You're missing the point. People are being accused for crimes they (more than likely) didn't commit and denied basic human rights. They face a 99% conviction rate in the Chinese courts. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-charges-michael-kovrig-and-michael-spavor-with-spying/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-charges-...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 6y ago

ddona 6y ago

How is this moving below a post (on the front page) about MariaDB that's 14 hours old (versus 3 hours old), has fewer points, and many fewer comments?