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Not just arrested but tortured, as we've seen with the two Canadian Michaels and the British Simon Cheng. Edit: British-employed not actually British
by wendyshu 6y ago
Not just arrested but tortured, as we've seen with the two Canadian Michaels and the British Simon Cheng.
Edit: British-employed not actually British
- hungryhobo 6y agoI would say only 1 Michael, The other one sold drugs in a country that specifically banned drugs
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- wendyshu 6y agoGood point, committing a crime there is an especially bad idea.
- poiuytrewqa 6y agoWhy there's a country where doing a crime is a good idea? I can recall that also US still have capital punishment for example
- justwalt 6y agoI’d imagine it’s far easier to be sentenced to death there as opposed to the US.
- poiuytrewqa 6y agoTo be honest, as European I think China and US are pretty similar in many ways (propaganda, law enforcement etc). So said each country has their own problem but if anybody focus more on resolving their internal problem before teaching everybody how to live would be better. In this forum is very hard to discuss anything serious that doesn't follow the prevalent opinion that you get down votes without reason.
- kolanos 6y ago> To be honest, as European I think China and US are pretty similar in many ways (propaganda, law enforcement etc). As a non-European, non-American and non-Chinese I find this utterly confused line of thinking depressing. It is clear Europeans are subject to their own propaganda in this regard.
- genoapol 6y agoExcept the Chinese haven't acted like global parasites for the past few centuries like Europe and America.
- tristor 6y agoEven if you acknowledge that a global hegemony lead by the US currently exists, it certainly has not "for the past few centuries". Value judgements on whether that hegemony has been a net positive or net negative for the world, aside. I'd say your viewpoint of the world is not based on reality.
- IllogicalLogic 6y ago>Even if you acknowledge that a global hegemony lead by the US currently exists, it certainly has not "for the past few centuries". It stated "Europe & America" acted like global parasites. Just because we renamed part of the British Empire, it doesn't mean US history starts at Independence. The genocide that occurred on these continents (the Americas pre-independence) and the drugging and robbing of China for a century (post-independence) are some of the largest scale parasitic exercises in human history. Haven't even mentioned the 10-12 million enslaved...
- dang 6y agoWe've banned this account for using HN primarily for political/ideological battle. Please don't do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- alex_anglin 6y agoIsn't the point of arbitrary arrest that the crime is figured out afterwards, if at all?
- 0x8BADF00D 6y agoSort of. In many Asian countries, the rule of law is very weak or nonexistent. This means you will eventually come into contact with the police - usually for the purpose of extorting a bribe from you.
- genoapol 6y agoDon't bring drugs into Asia and expect to have a good time. This is one area that being ignorant of history can get one executed.
- mthoms 6y agoThis is incorrect. The two Michaels have been accused of spying. You're thinking of a third Canadian Robert Schellenberg. His punished was suddenly changed from 15 years in prison to a death sentence after a recent retrial. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53104303 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53104303 https://globalnews.ca/news/5257482/robert-schellenberg-death-sentence-appeal-hearing-china/ https://globalnews.ca/news/5257482/robert-schellenberg-death...
- hungryhobo 6y agoAh my bad
- nicholas73 6y agoIIRC, Schellenberg requested re-trial to try to take advantage of the politics despite that a re-trial had the possibility of increasing the penalty to death penalty even without political motivation. That is, he gambled and lost.
- kolanos 6y agoIt appears the two Michaels were suspected of espionage? [0] The Canadians sentenced to death for drug smuggling were different people. [1] [0]: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/04/asia/china-canada-kovrig-spavor-huawei-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/04/asia/china-canada-kovrig-spav... [1]: https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/30/asia/canada-china-death-sentence-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/30/asia/canada-china-death-sente...
- nabla9 6y agoChinese government is constantly challenging the validity of foreign passport if the person is ethnically Han Chinese. Governments must apply diplomatic pressure go get their citizens free.
- alex_anglin 6y agoThe Michaels are not ethnically Chinese.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- razakel 6y agoThis is also something Iran does - in theory someone can renounce Iranian citizenship, but it never really happens. Essentially, if your father is Iranian, you are Iranian, even if you were born outside Iran, and you must go to Iran to request renunciation - which can be denied, and is hardly inviting for someone criticising the regime.
- ur-whale 6y ago> if the person is ethnically Han Chinese How do they ascertain that? DNA testing?
- aembleton 6y agoProbably just by looking at them.
- runawaybottle 6y agoWell Canada really defied China by arresting Huawei CFO and (could then extradite to US). China is really in a weird coldish war with the West, especially when you throw in England defying them with sanctuary for HKers. They must be getting pissed, curious how things could escalate.
- eloisius 6y ago“Defying” implies that they are in some kind of authority over whether another country offers an immigration path to willing immigrants. No one is defying them here. They are acting outside the bounds of whatever legitimate authority they have, and have been doing so for some time. They are being checked.
- runawaybottle 6y agoOh sure, I used the word with some attempt at seeing things from their perspective. China has been mostly seen as a rational amoral actor in the global stage, but it’s entirely possible over time their perspective is taking on a, you know, authoritarian shape. ‘You don’t just arrest our business leaders’, there’s a lot of face to save there.
- genoapol 6y agoWestern citizens have to recognize the hypocrisy of these stands eventually, don't they?
- tristor 6y agoI don't think there's a time in living memory for most people on HN when China wasn't authoritarian. If anything, they've become more relaxed in the last 3 decades, but we're seeing them more recently re-exert authority.
- Aperocky 6y agoSimon Cheng apparently were on British mission to gather intel and were called a spy by BBC, also, he is not British. Check out the BBC interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_2TzuNsZDM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_2TzuNsZDM
- wendyshu 6y agoOops, thank you.
- dehrmann 6y agoAren't the Michaels just retaliation for Meng Wanzhou?
- wendyshu 6y agoIndeed -- and who knows what China will retaliate for next.
- CountSessine 6y ago“just”?
- jszymborski 6y ago"just" retaliation... this makes their detention arbitrary. After Meng Wanzhou was arrested (and placed under house arrest in her multi-million dollar Vancouver mansion), the Chinese government arbitrarily picked two high-value Canadians (an entrepeneur and a Candian diplomat) and threw them into solitary confinement, interrogating them 24/7 in shifts, and giving ostensibly no access to lawyers/representation. Oh, and by the way, you don't need to be a diplomat or entrepeneur to be picked up. They do it all the time [0]. You can read more about Spavor and Kovrig, the Canadians detained in solitary confinement in China for over a year, here: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-michael-kovrig-michael-spavor-canadian-detainees-china-explainer/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-michael-kov... [0] https://torontosun.com/news/national/123-canadians-detained-in-chinese-jails-foreign-affairs https://torontosun.com/news/national/123-canadians-detained-...
- mytailorisrich 6y agoIt's difficult to determine whether it is arbitrary (in the legal sense) because the Chinese government does not communicate on these issues and the Canadian government will obviously not want to spill any beans. What is plain to me is that a Canadian guy who can live in China at the border with North Korea, can run a business there, and personally knows Kim Jung Un is not just any "entrepreneur"... Likewise we cannot know exactly what "diplomat" means for someone stationed abroad (including Afghanistan, and Beijing). I'm not defending the Chinese government but these 2 guys were clearly not arbitrarily picked, it's a little disingenuous to claim that they were.
- mytailorisrich 6y agoLeaving the discussion on right or wrong aside, the 2 Canadians were not targeted at random and were clearly on a Chinese government list of foreigners with close links to foreign governments' agencies that the Chinese let operate "at their pleasure". A bit like when e.g. Russia arrests and expels/imprisons Western spies the US/UK immediately know which Russians on their soil to target in the same way in a tit-for-tat response. There are plenty of Canadians and Americans in China, including students, language teachers, expats, etc. and I don't think that they face any particular danger as long as they don't make waves. "Without explanation" (as per the article) is not the same thing as "at random".
- CountSessine 6y agoBut this is the same faulty reasoning that led the press to underestimate the danger of covid19. The probability of arbitrary and unbounded detention and torture is very small, but the change in personal utility would be so terrible that you have to consider the risk profile of travelling to China to be similar to wingsuit-skydiving or exposure to radiation.
- mytailorisrich 6y agoI think the faulty reasoning is to assume that the arrest of these 2 Canadians means that Canadians are not safe in China. This is FUD. As said, this overlooks who these 2 Canadians are: There are apparently hundreds of thousands of Canadians in China and the 2 arrested clearly have links to the Canadian government and/or intelligence agencies. The probability of being mugged and shot in the US is probably higher but I don't see articles telling people to stay well clear.
- mthoms 6y ago>the 2 arrested clearly have links to the Canadian government and/or intelligence agencies. One of them used to be diplomat so yes, he has connections to the government. The other has no connections (that have been reported on at least). And where did you get "intelligence agencies" from!? Do you have a citation or did you just make that up? You know, like spreading FUD?