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While I'm sympathetic to the idea of being respectful of everyone, I question whether these changes make any meaningful difference at all. Was anyone offended

by bavell 6y ago

While I'm sympathetic to the idea of being respectful of everyone, I question whether these changes make any meaningful difference at all. Was anyone offended by these terms and called for change? Or was this a preemptive move by those thinking something along the lines of, "Gosh, what if someone else sees this? They might get the wrong idea! Better remove it." I suppose black box testing is on the chopping block next? Or Master's degree/thesis?

acdha 6y ago
For me, there are two priorities: get rid of any use of “slave”, and any use in a negative context. Blackbox testing doesn’t have negative connotations and it’s not contrasted with a better white counterpart, unlike blacklist/whitelist. Similarly, the degree below masters isn’t named black and a karate black belt is respected.
- bavell 6y ago
  How do you feel about the term, "Blackbody"? E.g. Blackbody radiation. Master's degree implies a superiority to the lower degrees, clearly establishing a dominance hierarchy. Is that much different from the master/slave terminology? Or is it just the use of the word "Master" combined with the word "Slave" which is the problem?
  - acdha 6y ago
    Master as in “master’s degree” is from a Latin word meaning teacher, and it’s the same root for mastery. I think most of the concern about tech usage comes from introducing the term “slave”, either directly in a pair or, as with Git, deriving from that usage. It’s that specific pairing along with the technical inaccuracy which makes master/slave considerably more likely to offend, in my opinion. If someone came to me and said, however, that they didn’t like the term and wanted to change it I wouldn’t object because it costs me so very little to be respectful of the fact that not everyone comes from the same place. Blackbody radiation, black hole, etc. similarly doesn’t have the same pairing as you get with white/black-list - it’s a physical phenomena, not a problem. The concern isn’t using the word black but using it in a context which reminds the reader of racist use of the same words in other contexts.
    - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
      You do get it for black-box vs white-box testing, though. So, is it racist?
      - dwalts 6y ago
        These things are decided on a case by case basis by the people who implement them and no one will force you to replace all use of the word white or black with different words. You cannot be serious if you think this will meaningfully affect your life in a harmful way.
      - acdha 6y ago
        I’ve never heard those used in a context of one being good and the other bad, only being different tools. It seems far less likely to cause concern without a value judgement.
        ThrowawayR2 6y ago
        Black-box only testers are less technically skilled that those capable of white-box testing as well. (If that sounds flimsy, well, so does the blacklist/whitelist controversy.)
    - bavell 6y ago
      Thank you for your good-faith replies! I'm trying to understand other perspectives on this topic. On the use of "blackbody" - I'm sure some people with little or no background in physics would certainly take offense to it. It may be a physical phenomena but it was still named by fallible, biased humans - it shouldn't be exempt right? Surely you don't need a "white" version for a term to be problematic? "Blackbody" seems as problematic as "blacklist" to me because the term it's paired with (radiation) has a very negative colloquial connotation (nuclear war, cancer, etc). Thoughts?
      - Chris2048 6y ago
        It's funny how "Blackbody" and "blacklist" can be seen as a problem, without ever questioning the application of black and white to people, who are normally neither black nor white. I suppose "coloured" was intended to remedy this, but it's fallen out of favour. FYI - blackness has always had negative connotations in the same way darkness has: it's associated with the night, and not being able to see. I'm sure these sentiments are universal, and existed in the west before the influence of race.
sebazzz 6y ago
The only argument I hear is "If it makes a few people feel better and doesn't cost anything, why not?". The header of Hacker News is orange, and orange is the national color of the Dutch, and the Dutch were slave masters (VOC era). I'm sure once you make the connection, someone can be offended. So, why not change it?

by bavell 6y ago

acdha 6y ago

For me, there are two priorities: get rid of any use of “slave”, and any use in a negative context. Blackbox testing doesn’t have negative connotations and it’s not contrasted with a better white counterpart, unlike blacklist/whitelist. Similarly, the degree below masters isn’t named black and a karate black belt is respected.

bavell 6y ago
How do you feel about the term, "Blackbody"? E.g. Blackbody radiation. Master's degree implies a superiority to the lower degrees, clearly establishing a dominance hierarchy. Is that much different from the master/slave terminology? Or is it just the use of the word "Master" combined with the word "Slave" which is the problem?
- acdha 6y ago
  Master as in “master’s degree” is from a Latin word meaning teacher, and it’s the same root for mastery. I think most of the concern about tech usage comes from introducing the term “slave”, either directly in a pair or, as with Git, deriving from that usage. It’s that specific pairing along with the technical inaccuracy which makes master/slave considerably more likely to offend, in my opinion. If someone came to me and said, however, that they didn’t like the term and wanted to change it I wouldn’t object because it costs me so very little to be respectful of the fact that not everyone comes from the same place. Blackbody radiation, black hole, etc. similarly doesn’t have the same pairing as you get with white/black-list - it’s a physical phenomena, not a problem. The concern isn’t using the word black but using it in a context which reminds the reader of racist use of the same words in other contexts.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    You do get it for black-box vs white-box testing, though. So, is it racist?
    - dwalts 6y ago
      These things are decided on a case by case basis by the people who implement them and no one will force you to replace all use of the word white or black with different words. You cannot be serious if you think this will meaningfully affect your life in a harmful way.
    - acdha 6y ago
      I’ve never heard those used in a context of one being good and the other bad, only being different tools. It seems far less likely to cause concern without a value judgement.
      - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
        Black-box only testers are less technically skilled that those capable of white-box testing as well. (If that sounds flimsy, well, so does the blacklist/whitelist controversy.)
  - bavell 6y ago
    Thank you for your good-faith replies! I'm trying to understand other perspectives on this topic. On the use of "blackbody" - I'm sure some people with little or no background in physics would certainly take offense to it. It may be a physical phenomena but it was still named by fallible, biased humans - it shouldn't be exempt right? Surely you don't need a "white" version for a term to be problematic? "Blackbody" seems as problematic as "blacklist" to me because the term it's paired with (radiation) has a very negative colloquial connotation (nuclear war, cancer, etc). Thoughts?
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      It's funny how "Blackbody" and "blacklist" can be seen as a problem, without ever questioning the application of black and white to people, who are normally neither black nor white. I suppose "coloured" was intended to remedy this, but it's fallen out of favour. FYI - blackness has always had negative connotations in the same way darkness has: it's associated with the night, and not being able to see. I'm sure these sentiments are universal, and existed in the west before the influence of race.

sebazzz 6y ago

The only argument I hear is "If it makes a few people feel better and doesn't cost anything, why not?". The header of Hacker News is orange, and orange is the national color of the Dutch, and the Dutch were slave masters (VOC era). I'm sure once you make the connection, someone can be offended. So, why not change it?