7 ms·

>if there are any real advantages at all. If it brings just one more person into OS isn't it worth it?

by nojito 6y ago

umvi 6y ago
Only if it doesn't drive >0 people away from the OS
FeepingCreature 6y ago
If it just puts off one person isn't it not worth it?
- smachiz 6y ago
  You seem unconcerned about the people who might feel marginalized and harmed by the rampant use of offensive language, and really concerned about people who could simply substitute another word with no impact. It's a really, really false equivalence. If you're offended by being asked to behave civilly you really have a bigger problem to deal with.
  - zug_zug 6y ago
    I don't feel you're arguing in good faith. We should define "offensive language." How will we measure it fairly? Will we poll the english-speaking and set a thresh-hold? Because I sure hope we don't find out "aborting" a process is offensive language to religious coders with a polical agenda.
    - notafraudster 6y ago
      I mean one way to do it would be that when someone brings up a specific term that they feel is a problem, we decide to change the term or not, and if we choose not to, we can revisit later. If someone brings up that they feel the verb abort is an issue, the community can have that conversation. There are no shortage of idioms that are synonymic -- halt, stop, terminate, end -- and it would be trivial to make the changes if it came to that. Either the decision will be to replace with another idiom, or to keep the existing one. If Linux had never used master/slave, and instead used primary/secondary, no one would open up a discussion to say "replace primary with master, primary is unclear and too much work to type" or whatever. So clearly there's no obligation to use the disputed terms, just as there wouldn't be for "abort". Are you hung up on using "abort"? Like, we don't need some cosmic answer once and for all about whether or not ever possible term will ever be offensive. We can just respond to people who bring the issues up. If they seem to be bringing it up in bad faith (for example, if the username is "DefendTheWestGroyper" and they have an anime avatar, probably you don't need to take them seriously) then that can be part of the conversation too. If this is the worst bikeshedding you're experiencing in a team project then you've got an uncommonly productive group. But also you can just opt out of the conversation. If you try to submit a PR later with a banned word in it, someone will flag it. The consequences on the code side seem de minimis.
  - bavell 6y ago
    I'm not being asked to behave civilly though, I'm being asked to coddle infantile behavior of thin-skinned people taking things out of context. I'd much rather have a civil discussion about substantive changes we can make to society as whole, not wasting everyone's time with trivial and performative conformance.
- hn_check 6y ago
  Who would be put off? Show me a person who is offended at the change from master/slave to primary/secondary, and I'll show you someone who is almost certainly a deplorable person in many other ways and are almost certainly a liability.
- DonHopkins 6y ago
  If it puts off any Alt-Right White Supremacists and drives them away from the Linux community, then that's an excellent outcome. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/03/silicon-valley-tech-alt-right-racism-misogyny/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/03/silicon-valley-... >Meet Silicon Valley’s Secretive Alt-Right Followers. I investigated the role of “alt-techies” in the extremist movement emboldened by Trump. >“The average alt-right-ist is probably a 28-year-old tech-savvy guy working in IT,” white nationalist Richard Spencer insisted when I interviewed him a few weeks before the election.
  - concordDance 6y ago
    > If it puts off any Alt-Right White Supremacists and drives them away from the Linux community, then that's an excellent outcome. What?! Why? How is getting a less feature rich/buggier kernal due to less devs a good thing? Or is it just that anything bad or exclusionary happening to your political enemies is a good thing?
    - DonHopkins 6y ago
      How are White Supremacists not your political enemies, and why are you so concerned about their feelings?
    - DonHopkins 6y ago
      And why are you advocating driving away minorities and anti-racist people from working on the Linux kernel by tolerating White Supremacists in violation of the Linux Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct, who consider other human beings genetically inferior and not deserving of the same rights and respect as white people? Are you ok with rapists and murderers, too, or do you just have a special place in your heart for defending White Supremacy? https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... >Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: >The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or advances >Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks >Public or private harassment >Publishing others’ private information, such as a physical or electronic address, without explicit permission >Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting White Supremacy is clearly inappropriate in a professional setting. Or do you disagree? Do you have a dog in this battle? Can you name any White Supremacist kernel hackers who the community can't get along without? You really need to take a deep look at yourself, and decide which side of history you're on. Advocating and defending White Supremacy online could and should have detrimental effect on your employability. Do you stand by your beliefs enough to share your real name with us, or do you insist on remaining anonymous?
ta17711771 6y ago
Depends if it actually does. And if that person can code.
loceng 6y ago
Is there a net benefit of coddling unreasonable people to such a degree that we're no longer allowing words to have different meanings, and holding integrity through requiring critical thinking to understand language properly? Organizations playing into this are either pandering to the mob and/or aren't grounded in reason. Let's be strong for our brothers and sisters, even if discomfort increases temporarily due to a mob.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  Do you actually know the people in the linux kernel community who are discussing this change and do you know they are unreasonable people who can be described as a mob? Genuinely asking because I don't know them, and therefore I can't judge on who they are as people, but you are clearly judging them as people so I'm assuming you know them?
  - loceng 6y ago
    I didn't call them a mob - try reading what I said again. Also the length of your argument repeating the same (wrong) thing doesn't strengthen it either. Many people's reading comprehension in this thread suits the arguments they want to make, setting up straw man arguments seemingly without realizing it.
    - neilp1 6y ago
      Perhaps you could be clearer who you’re calling a mob.
    - ryanobjc 6y ago
      You instead accused the Linux kernel team of either "pandering to a mob" or "ungrounded in reason". Hardly charitable. Do you think everyone who has a different view from you total scum of the earth? Maybe they came to a totally rational conclusion, using a completely different set of axioms than you would, that this change is worth it?
      - 6y ago

>if there are any real advantages at all. If it brings just one more person into OS isn't it worth it?

by nojito 6y ago

>if there are any real advantages at all. If it brings just one more person into OS isn't it worth it?

umvi 6y ago

Only if it doesn't drive >0 people away from the OS

FeepingCreature 6y ago

If it just puts off one person isn't it not worth it?

smachiz 6y ago
You seem unconcerned about the people who might feel marginalized and harmed by the rampant use of offensive language, and really concerned about people who could simply substitute another word with no impact. It's a really, really false equivalence. If you're offended by being asked to behave civilly you really have a bigger problem to deal with.
- zug_zug 6y ago
  I don't feel you're arguing in good faith. We should define "offensive language." How will we measure it fairly? Will we poll the english-speaking and set a thresh-hold? Because I sure hope we don't find out "aborting" a process is offensive language to religious coders with a polical agenda.
  - notafraudster 6y ago
    I mean one way to do it would be that when someone brings up a specific term that they feel is a problem, we decide to change the term or not, and if we choose not to, we can revisit later. If someone brings up that they feel the verb abort is an issue, the community can have that conversation. There are no shortage of idioms that are synonymic -- halt, stop, terminate, end -- and it would be trivial to make the changes if it came to that. Either the decision will be to replace with another idiom, or to keep the existing one. If Linux had never used master/slave, and instead used primary/secondary, no one would open up a discussion to say "replace primary with master, primary is unclear and too much work to type" or whatever. So clearly there's no obligation to use the disputed terms, just as there wouldn't be for "abort". Are you hung up on using "abort"? Like, we don't need some cosmic answer once and for all about whether or not ever possible term will ever be offensive. We can just respond to people who bring the issues up. If they seem to be bringing it up in bad faith (for example, if the username is "DefendTheWestGroyper" and they have an anime avatar, probably you don't need to take them seriously) then that can be part of the conversation too. If this is the worst bikeshedding you're experiencing in a team project then you've got an uncommonly productive group. But also you can just opt out of the conversation. If you try to submit a PR later with a banned word in it, someone will flag it. The consequences on the code side seem de minimis.
- bavell 6y ago
  I'm not being asked to behave civilly though, I'm being asked to coddle infantile behavior of thin-skinned people taking things out of context. I'd much rather have a civil discussion about substantive changes we can make to society as whole, not wasting everyone's time with trivial and performative conformance.
hn_check 6y ago
Who would be put off? Show me a person who is offended at the change from master/slave to primary/secondary, and I'll show you someone who is almost certainly a deplorable person in many other ways and are almost certainly a liability.
DonHopkins 6y ago
If it puts off any Alt-Right White Supremacists and drives them away from the Linux community, then that's an excellent outcome. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/03/silicon-valley-tech-alt-right-racism-misogyny/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/03/silicon-valley-... >Meet Silicon Valley’s Secretive Alt-Right Followers. I investigated the role of “alt-techies” in the extremist movement emboldened by Trump. >“The average alt-right-ist is probably a 28-year-old tech-savvy guy working in IT,” white nationalist Richard Spencer insisted when I interviewed him a few weeks before the election.
- concordDance 6y ago
  > If it puts off any Alt-Right White Supremacists and drives them away from the Linux community, then that's an excellent outcome. What?! Why? How is getting a less feature rich/buggier kernal due to less devs a good thing? Or is it just that anything bad or exclusionary happening to your political enemies is a good thing?
  - DonHopkins 6y ago
    How are White Supremacists not your political enemies, and why are you so concerned about their feelings?
  - DonHopkins 6y ago
    And why are you advocating driving away minorities and anti-racist people from working on the Linux kernel by tolerating White Supremacists in violation of the Linux Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct, who consider other human beings genetically inferior and not deserving of the same rights and respect as white people? Are you ok with rapists and murderers, too, or do you just have a special place in your heart for defending White Supremacy? https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... >Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: >The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or advances >Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks >Public or private harassment >Publishing others’ private information, such as a physical or electronic address, without explicit permission >Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting White Supremacy is clearly inappropriate in a professional setting. Or do you disagree? Do you have a dog in this battle? Can you name any White Supremacist kernel hackers who the community can't get along without? You really need to take a deep look at yourself, and decide which side of history you're on. Advocating and defending White Supremacy online could and should have detrimental effect on your employability. Do you stand by your beliefs enough to share your real name with us, or do you insist on remaining anonymous?

ta17711771 6y ago

Depends if it actually does. And if that person can code.

loceng 6y ago

Is there a net benefit of coddling unreasonable people to such a degree that we're no longer allowing words to have different meanings, and holding integrity through requiring critical thinking to understand language properly? Organizations playing into this are either pandering to the mob and/or aren't grounded in reason. Let's be strong for our brothers and sisters, even if discomfort increases temporarily due to a mob.

TeaDrunk 6y ago
Do you actually know the people in the linux kernel community who are discussing this change and do you know they are unreasonable people who can be described as a mob? Genuinely asking because I don't know them, and therefore I can't judge on who they are as people, but you are clearly judging them as people so I'm assuming you know them?
- loceng 6y ago
  I didn't call them a mob - try reading what I said again. Also the length of your argument repeating the same (wrong) thing doesn't strengthen it either. Many people's reading comprehension in this thread suits the arguments they want to make, setting up straw man arguments seemingly without realizing it.
  - neilp1 6y ago
    Perhaps you could be clearer who you’re calling a mob.
  - ryanobjc 6y ago
    You instead accused the Linux kernel team of either "pandering to a mob" or "ungrounded in reason". Hardly charitable. Do you think everyone who has a different view from you total scum of the earth? Maybe they came to a totally rational conclusion, using a completely different set of axioms than you would, that this change is worth it?
    - 6y ago