5 ms·

I think my biggest problem is that I don't exhaust myself physically. Humans are built for constant labor. We're the endurance-running champions of the animal k

I think my biggest problem is that I don't exhaust myself physically. Humans are built for constant labor. We're the endurance-running champions of the animal kingdom. As recently as last century, almost all jobs were physically exhausting. Mind work is exhausting as well, but in a different way. At the end of a strenuous day of coding, and endless meetings, I'm drained. Completely wiped out. I feel physically exhausted, but I'm not, at all. On the rare occasions that I physically exhaust myself, be it home remodeling, yard work, or canoeing, I sleep like the dead. No insomnia, solid rest. I still have all the same things going on in my life; the same job, same bills, all the anxieties large and small that "keep me awake" other nights. Which is why I don't think any of it is psychological. My body just isn't worn out enough. I'm not looking for advice. "You should exercise more! Have you tried X?" This is my observation. We aren't constructed for office work.

gmtx725 6y ago
Completely agree. Being mentally drained and physically drained are completely different things. I personally think we need a balance of physical and mental pursuits in our lives to be truly healthy. Anecdotally, my insomnia has improved massively since I started running for an hour every day after work a few years ago. Even so, I wish my job didn't require me to be so sedentary.
shoulderfake 6y ago
Try going for a 5min jog after work even if you feel exhausted. Tell yourself just 5 mins. Then re-assess your fatigue after 5mins.
ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
I was about to post that. It's definitely true in my experience. Only thing that's ever worked for when I get real bad insomnia is strenuous cardio/HIIT-type workouts. But that's something people can't sell you so that's the last thing people try. Even this advice that Jacques says about no napping during the day. IF I'm working out, I need that nap. I suggest he try cutting everything out except for the morning bike ride and see how far it takes you. And yeah, people shit far too much on that book, "While We Sleep" maybe some of the findings need more data but they do ring true, especially the part about underestimating lack of sleep does to our mind and body. Btw, didn't know you played synths.
agumonkey 6y ago
Methinks our body just reacts very well to physical exhaustion, trigger molecule cascades that make us very content. Physical exercise pushed too far is as nasty as mental efforts in a bad context (too difficult, too quick, etc). That said I've been aiming for simple physical jobs as a free therapy kind of way. Another point is that being physically fit has a very positive effect on your mind, it's like one big concern removed and you get more motivation for other ventures. Lastly, who thinks having physical breaks during the day is good for pacing your mental flow ? even better with group sports .. ps: many people feel like swimming is a particularly good form of exhaustion. I had a similar experience doing soft kungfu/taichi. But I wonder what else causes deep drain and fatigue that just resets all your system.
david422 6y ago
I worked on a farm for a summer when I was younger. It was so physically demanding that I remember just dropping dead asleep at nights.
tacon 6y ago
It doesn't take much time to exhaust yourself physically, at least to exhaust specific muscle groups. Systemic exhaustion (steady state exercise, like running) is another matter. It doesn't even cause sweating, as it is over too quickly. I have been experimenting lately with pushups to failure just before I turn out the lights and climb into bed. By failure, I mean MMF (momentary muscular failure), not being able to repeat the motion as hard as I try. An alternative is body weight squats by the bed, to failure. Pick the range of motion to be in the hard (low) part of the squat, move slowly (SuperSlow protocol is 10 seconds concentric, 10 seconds eccentric) to failure, and make it hard enough to fail in less than 90 seconds. Crawl into bed and fall asleep easily (after your heart stops pounding). Of course, you will also build muscle mass over time, which doesn't hurt. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdJFbjWHEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdJFbjWHEU [1] "Body by Science: A Research Based Program to Get the Results You Want in 12 Minutes a Week" https://www.amazon.com/Body-Science-Research-Strength-Training/dp/0071597174/ https://www.amazon.com/Body-Science-Research-Strength-Traini...
derefr 6y ago
> Humans are built for constant labor. We're the endurance-running champions of the animal kingdom. I mean, sure, we can do that. But most of our ape relatives lay about all day socializing and taking advantage of their social cohesiveness to hunt-and-gather very quickly (and then get back to lazing around.) They have many capabilities, but rarely use them, because social organization is just so OP compared to the defenses of most of the animal kingdom. The big strong apes (e.g. gorillas) don't use their strength for anything day-to-day; they just use it in occasional tribal territorial disputes and social-hierarchy disputes, which don't take up all that much of their time, all-said. Certainly not enough to wear them out by the end of the day, every day. I don't see any reason that our sleeping habits would have gone through a big evolutionary shift relative to all the other apes; so if they can—and do—sleep just fine without exhausting themselves, we very likely can as well. If we can't, it's very likely not "lack of exhaustion" that's the cause. IMHO, exhaustion seems to just be a hack, overriding the concerns of some other part of us that thinks it important for us to stay awake; rather than the proper resolution of that mechanism's concerns.
- slivr 6y ago
  I wonder if the big difference is the amount of crap constantly taking up our attention. Apes don't have to worry about waking up at a precise time, picking up groceries, the softball game on Friday, etc. etc. Physical exhaustion seems to draw on the same pool of energy that we use to ruminate and stress about all of this crap, so maybe that's part of the reason it helps.
- caymanjim 6y ago
  Apes spend over 50% of their day chewing food, and most of the rest sitting around digesting. Their diets are low-energy and they really can't do much else. We require over 25% more calories (adjusted for total body mass). There are some large physiological differences. This is what they're doing while socializing. We really are turbocharged engines by comparison. Our bodies are still adjusting, poorly, to the shift to agriculture and its higher caloric supply. Until recently agriculture was also hard work for everyone in a society. Apes can't wear themselves out in the same way because they lack the horsepower. They're maxed-out.
magneticnorth 6y ago
Since starting to wfh daily due to the pandemic, I've found I'm not nearly as mentally wiped out at the end of the workday, and as a result it's a lot easier to get a bit of physical exercise in the evening. I knew I found my commute tiring, but I don't think I realized how much. After a workday + commuting home I was always wiped out mentally and physically, and now I'm only mentally tired, but not so much physically.
youareostriches 6y ago
>...home remodeling, yard work, or canoeing... Are you sure it's actually the physical exhaustion and not the hours of exposure to direct sunlight which calibrates your circadian rhythm?
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  Home remodelling is an indoor activity though.
- caymanjim 6y ago
  I'm fairly convinced that my body wants a 27-hour day, when external forces are removed. Being in the sun all day is certainly more tiring than indoor activity. The physical exertion seems to work well enough without the sun. I used to live in Cayman and got tons of sun daily, and still slept better after exertion.
_tom_ 6y ago
That's why I started dancing (ballroom, etc), after a day job of coding. You need to work your mind, and your body, if you want to sleep. I could come home feeling exhausted, but that was all mental. I could get up and dance for hours, and feel great. But if I tried to go to sleep without exercise, it was hard. My body wanted to do something. Any type exercise would probably work, I used to do weights before bed, that worked very well. I slept like a log.
vl 6y ago
It's an individual journey for everyone. For me it's: * Regular exercise * Earplugs (at night) * Light control - dim lights and no computer use before bed. * Schedule Night is definitely better than day in all aspects, but the price of staying awake is too high. I can't stand noise-canceling headphones, but lucky enough regular over-the-ear headphones with Pink Floyd work well enough for me. Modern offices suck big time (penny-wise pound-foolish), but it looks like in many cases office workers are going to be put out to work "from home". In OP's case specifically he works from home, so if worse comes to worse, at the end of the day he can move to quieter, more rural part of Netherlands.
lr4444lr 6y ago
> Humans are built for constant labor. We're the endurance-running champions of the animal kingdom That is a contentious assertion. Yes, perhaps we can go for longer distances than other primates, but it doesn't mean that this has anything to do with our ideal exhaustion, nor that it was something we did regularly, nor that it is free of negative side effects, nor that other primates couldn't do it if we could design some (very unethical) experiments. Experiments on the health effects of high intensity short duration exercise are very compelling. I agree with you that we are not generally adapted to modern lifestyles, but there are a whole host of other factors to insomnia in that grab bag (terrible diets eaten year round, artificial light, social isolation).
DoreenMichele 6y ago
I'm not looking for advice. This is not advice, just an observation from years of dealing with health issues that had my sleep extremely deranged for years: The lymphatic system is run by muscle action. This is how it works: Lymph is blood, minus certain blood products, like red blood cells. It leaves the blood and seeps into the tissues, where it gets labeled by humans as interstitial fluid. Then it somehow has to make its way back to the blood system. The problem is that the blood system is run by the action of the heart. How do you pump fluid once it is beyond the reach of the heart to make it flow back into the circulatory system? The answer is: The rest of the muscles. When you are physically active, lymph flows back into the blood system at multiple times the rate at which it normally seeps slowly back into the blood system. One source I saw suggested it flows back at 6 to 8 times its normal speed when you are active. Lymph is how the body takes out the trash. It's how your body cleans up garbage in the system. Walking regularly has proven to be critical to my ability to manage my genetic disorder. My genetic disorder boils down to being a bottleneck in the system and taking out the garbage regularly in a sustainable fashion that doesn't overwhelm my frail system has proven critical to my health and has helped me reverse a lot of issues that the world tells me cannot be reversed. The brain has a separate lymphatic system with a separate name. I think they call it the glymphatic system. The brain only takes out the trash when you are a sleep. Flushing fluid from the brain is a primary reason we sleep. In my experience -- my long healing journey -- naps follow physical activity because taking out the trash in the rest of the body triggers improved capacity to take out the trash from the brain. Brain/nerve tissues are the slowest to heal of the entire body. Cartilage gets no direct blood supply. It gets all nutrients and all garbage removal via osmosis. All surrounding tissues have to be cleaned up and improved in status before cartilage starts to heal. Brain tissue is also "last served" and seems to follow a similar model that all other tissue has to be improved before the brain gets served. The fact that the brain's lymphatic system is a separate system and there is a blood-brain barrier regulating the flow of various things into and out of the brain are likely factors in why exercise promotes sleep.

gmtx725 6y ago

Completely agree. Being mentally drained and physically drained are completely different things. I personally think we need a balance of physical and mental pursuits in our lives to be truly healthy. Anecdotally, my insomnia has improved massively since I started running for an hour every day after work a few years ago. Even so, I wish my job didn't require me to be so sedentary.

shoulderfake 6y ago

Try going for a 5min jog after work even if you feel exhausted. Tell yourself just 5 mins. Then re-assess your fatigue after 5mins.

ulisesrmzroche 6y ago

I was about to post that. It's definitely true in my experience. Only thing that's ever worked for when I get real bad insomnia is strenuous cardio/HIIT-type workouts. But that's something people can't sell you so that's the last thing people try. Even this advice that Jacques says about no napping during the day. IF I'm working out, I need that nap. I suggest he try cutting everything out except for the morning bike ride and see how far it takes you. And yeah, people shit far too much on that book, "While We Sleep" maybe some of the findings need more data but they do ring true, especially the part about underestimating lack of sleep does to our mind and body. Btw, didn't know you played synths.

agumonkey 6y ago

Methinks our body just reacts very well to physical exhaustion, trigger molecule cascades that make us very content. Physical exercise pushed too far is as nasty as mental efforts in a bad context (too difficult, too quick, etc). That said I've been aiming for simple physical jobs as a free therapy kind of way. Another point is that being physically fit has a very positive effect on your mind, it's like one big concern removed and you get more motivation for other ventures. Lastly, who thinks having physical breaks during the day is good for pacing your mental flow ? even better with group sports .. ps: many people feel like swimming is a particularly good form of exhaustion. I had a similar experience doing soft kungfu/taichi. But I wonder what else causes deep drain and fatigue that just resets all your system.

david422 6y ago

I worked on a farm for a summer when I was younger. It was so physically demanding that I remember just dropping dead asleep at nights.

tacon 6y ago

It doesn't take much time to exhaust yourself physically, at least to exhaust specific muscle groups. Systemic exhaustion (steady state exercise, like running) is another matter. It doesn't even cause sweating, as it is over too quickly. I have been experimenting lately with pushups to failure just before I turn out the lights and climb into bed. By failure, I mean MMF (momentary muscular failure), not being able to repeat the motion as hard as I try. An alternative is body weight squats by the bed, to failure. Pick the range of motion to be in the hard (low) part of the squat, move slowly (SuperSlow protocol is 10 seconds concentric, 10 seconds eccentric) to failure, and make it hard enough to fail in less than 90 seconds. Crawl into bed and fall asleep easily (after your heart stops pounding). Of course, you will also build muscle mass over time, which doesn't hurt. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdJFbjWHEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdJFbjWHEU [1] "Body by Science: A Research Based Program to Get the Results You Want in 12 Minutes a Week" https://www.amazon.com/Body-Science-Research-Strength-Training/dp/0071597174/ https://www.amazon.com/Body-Science-Research-Strength-Traini...

derefr 6y ago

> Humans are built for constant labor. We're the endurance-running champions of the animal kingdom. I mean, sure, we can do that. But most of our ape relatives lay about all day socializing and taking advantage of their social cohesiveness to hunt-and-gather very quickly (and then get back to lazing around.) They have many capabilities, but rarely use them, because social organization is just so OP compared to the defenses of most of the animal kingdom. The big strong apes (e.g. gorillas) don't use their strength for anything day-to-day; they just use it in occasional tribal territorial disputes and social-hierarchy disputes, which don't take up all that much of their time, all-said. Certainly not enough to wear them out by the end of the day, every day. I don't see any reason that our sleeping habits would have gone through a big evolutionary shift relative to all the other apes; so if they can—and do—sleep just fine without exhausting themselves, we very likely can as well. If we can't, it's very likely not "lack of exhaustion" that's the cause. IMHO, exhaustion seems to just be a hack, overriding the concerns of some other part of us that thinks it important for us to stay awake; rather than the proper resolution of that mechanism's concerns.

slivr 6y ago
I wonder if the big difference is the amount of crap constantly taking up our attention. Apes don't have to worry about waking up at a precise time, picking up groceries, the softball game on Friday, etc. etc. Physical exhaustion seems to draw on the same pool of energy that we use to ruminate and stress about all of this crap, so maybe that's part of the reason it helps.
caymanjim 6y ago
Apes spend over 50% of their day chewing food, and most of the rest sitting around digesting. Their diets are low-energy and they really can't do much else. We require over 25% more calories (adjusted for total body mass). There are some large physiological differences. This is what they're doing while socializing. We really are turbocharged engines by comparison. Our bodies are still adjusting, poorly, to the shift to agriculture and its higher caloric supply. Until recently agriculture was also hard work for everyone in a society. Apes can't wear themselves out in the same way because they lack the horsepower. They're maxed-out.

magneticnorth 6y ago

Since starting to wfh daily due to the pandemic, I've found I'm not nearly as mentally wiped out at the end of the workday, and as a result it's a lot easier to get a bit of physical exercise in the evening. I knew I found my commute tiring, but I don't think I realized how much. After a workday + commuting home I was always wiped out mentally and physically, and now I'm only mentally tired, but not so much physically.

youareostriches 6y ago

>...home remodeling, yard work, or canoeing... Are you sure it's actually the physical exhaustion and not the hours of exposure to direct sunlight which calibrates your circadian rhythm?

frosted-flakes 6y ago
Home remodelling is an indoor activity though.
caymanjim 6y ago
I'm fairly convinced that my body wants a 27-hour day, when external forces are removed. Being in the sun all day is certainly more tiring than indoor activity. The physical exertion seems to work well enough without the sun. I used to live in Cayman and got tons of sun daily, and still slept better after exertion.

_tom_ 6y ago

That's why I started dancing (ballroom, etc), after a day job of coding. You need to work your mind, and your body, if you want to sleep. I could come home feeling exhausted, but that was all mental. I could get up and dance for hours, and feel great. But if I tried to go to sleep without exercise, it was hard. My body wanted to do something. Any type exercise would probably work, I used to do weights before bed, that worked very well. I slept like a log.

vl 6y ago

It's an individual journey for everyone. For me it's: * Regular exercise * Earplugs (at night) * Light control - dim lights and no computer use before bed. * Schedule Night is definitely better than day in all aspects, but the price of staying awake is too high. I can't stand noise-canceling headphones, but lucky enough regular over-the-ear headphones with Pink Floyd work well enough for me. Modern offices suck big time (penny-wise pound-foolish), but it looks like in many cases office workers are going to be put out to work "from home". In OP's case specifically he works from home, so if worse comes to worse, at the end of the day he can move to quieter, more rural part of Netherlands.

lr4444lr 6y ago

> Humans are built for constant labor. We're the endurance-running champions of the animal kingdom That is a contentious assertion. Yes, perhaps we can go for longer distances than other primates, but it doesn't mean that this has anything to do with our ideal exhaustion, nor that it was something we did regularly, nor that it is free of negative side effects, nor that other primates couldn't do it if we could design some (very unethical) experiments. Experiments on the health effects of high intensity short duration exercise are very compelling. I agree with you that we are not generally adapted to modern lifestyles, but there are a whole host of other factors to insomnia in that grab bag (terrible diets eaten year round, artificial light, social isolation).

DoreenMichele 6y ago

I'm not looking for advice. This is not advice, just an observation from years of dealing with health issues that had my sleep extremely deranged for years: The lymphatic system is run by muscle action. This is how it works: Lymph is blood, minus certain blood products, like red blood cells. It leaves the blood and seeps into the tissues, where it gets labeled by humans as interstitial fluid. Then it somehow has to make its way back to the blood system. The problem is that the blood system is run by the action of the heart. How do you pump fluid once it is beyond the reach of the heart to make it flow back into the circulatory system? The answer is: The rest of the muscles. When you are physically active, lymph flows back into the blood system at multiple times the rate at which it normally seeps slowly back into the blood system. One source I saw suggested it flows back at 6 to 8 times its normal speed when you are active. Lymph is how the body takes out the trash. It's how your body cleans up garbage in the system. Walking regularly has proven to be critical to my ability to manage my genetic disorder. My genetic disorder boils down to being a bottleneck in the system and taking out the garbage regularly in a sustainable fashion that doesn't overwhelm my frail system has proven critical to my health and has helped me reverse a lot of issues that the world tells me cannot be reversed. The brain has a separate lymphatic system with a separate name. I think they call it the glymphatic system. The brain only takes out the trash when you are a sleep. Flushing fluid from the brain is a primary reason we sleep. In my experience -- my long healing journey -- naps follow physical activity because taking out the trash in the rest of the body triggers improved capacity to take out the trash from the brain. Brain/nerve tissues are the slowest to heal of the entire body. Cartilage gets no direct blood supply. It gets all nutrients and all garbage removal via osmosis. All surrounding tissues have to be cleaned up and improved in status before cartilage starts to heal. Brain tissue is also "last served" and seems to follow a similar model that all other tissue has to be improved before the brain gets served. The fact that the brain's lymphatic system is a separate system and there is a blood-brain barrier regulating the flow of various things into and out of the brain are likely factors in why exercise promotes sleep.